Zimbabwe needs other Africans' help PDF Print E-mail
Written by Rejoice Ngwenya   
Wednesday, 25 July 2007

As a Zimbabwean I have seen my country turned from a bread-basket into a basket case. I can tell you that our educated and hard-working people are not fools but victims, so what is it that ails us?

Although we are an extreme case, these oppressive economic and political policies are not exclusive to Zimbabwe. The fallacy of the African dream of Ghanian founding father Kwame Nkrumah about self-rule has been exposed by the brutal failures of governments with a revolutionary history. Julius Nyerere, Kenneth Kaunda, Milton Obote, and perhaps even such so-called models of excellence as Yoweri Museveni and Thabo Mbeki, all espoused Nkrumaism, meaning state control of the economy and even of society.

blog_kwame_nkrumah.jpg
the Osagyefo lives on

Just down the road from where I live, there is Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe, who was not only a student of Nkrumah's but taught and married in his country. Like many Africans, he believes that we should cooperate with each other instead of overseas markets to achieve the economic, political and cultural integration which could raise our continent to the development level of Europe or the United States.

For me however, the true challenge is not cooperation but how we should learn from our history. Before Zimbabwe overthrew white rule, in 1980, a pothole on the highway was a disaster. A late train would cause public outcry. Now, many year later we have unfinished roads, bulldozed neighbourhoods and hyperinflation, while our dictator blames the West.

Why is it that when the white settler government handed over Air Rhodesia to a black manager, the airline had 30 airplanes but now there are only three left? Why is it that before 2000 there were only 4,000 white commercial farmers in Zimbabwe and we were the bread-basket of southern Africa, yet now there are 40,000 black commercial farmers and we have to import maize from little, poor Malawi?

I know. There is a fine line between self-criticism and self-loathing. But our problems are not caused by our being black but by authoritarians with incompetent and even urderous policies.

Today, Zimbabwe's health system has collapsed. Our main university once had 1,000 staff, now there are 300. A typical high-school teacher now earns around $20 a month. As you read this, my car is grounded because of lack of petrol. Service-station owners cannot sell it for the paltry controlled price of about 11 U.S. cents a liter when they have to buy it for about $1. My home has neither running water nor electricity. Mugabe's ZANU-PF government inherited one of the most sophisticated hydro-electric power plants in Africa, Kariba. But because of a gluttonous army, expensive anti-riot gear and military adventures in Mozambique and Democratic Republic of Congo, Mugabe has failed to maintain Kariba. It is about to stop production completely.

Hwange Colliery Mine has some of the richest coal deposits in the world, yet the thermal power station across the road does not have enough coal to power it because the railway linking the two has collapsed. In Harare, raw sewage flows openly in residential areas, contaminating scarce treated water because of pipes that have rotted since they were inherited from the white regime 27 years ago.

No private radio or television station is allowed to operate in Zimbabwe, while it is almost impossible to register a private newspaper. Yet Robert Mugabe masquerades on the regional stage as the spokesperson for the beleaguered citizens of Zimbabwe. He has absolutely no right to speak on our behalf. Those who do are the citizens protesting in the streets and some judges and lawyers struggling valiantly to hold together the shreds of the rule of law.


brotherly love

The lessons of history include the basic principles of good governance. There are plenty of examples for us to emulate but the Mugabes of the world ignored them in favour of ideology. Africans do need each other to develop but our ability to learn from each other's mistakes is miserable.

Even our neighbor, democratically elected South African President Thabo Mbeki, repeats with nauseating frequency that Zimbabweans have the capacity to solve their own problems. But during Mbeki's protracted struggle against apartheid he had the frontline states backing him, led by Mugabe. Today, Mbeki and his ilk treat Mugabe like a hero but regard Zimbabweans like dirt.
South Africa goes on military "peacekeeping" forays to faraway Sudan and Burundi. Why does Mbeki not believe those countries can solve their own problems?

We Africans will remain smothered in self-deceit until this generation of Nkrumaists, the greedy, the corrupt and the accidental democrats, has expired. Then African citizens may become free to cooperate with each other, economically and politically.

The one form of cooperation we need right now is world pressure on Africa's democratically elected leaders, not the avoidance seen at the recent G-8 summit in Heiligendamm. Only then might they face up to their moral, political and economic obligations to embrace freedom and boot the gangsters out.

The writer contributes to the business in focus blog.





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written by Stephen Wanyama , July 25, 2007
Okay Rejoice, now here's reason to be glum. A few facts.
First, in the post world war II period, the whole world was caught in a grip of large government. People really were terrified that the prophesies of Marx would come true. Look at the state of Zimbabwe's colonisers the UK, during that period.
Bring us to the second point. Post-colonial leaders around the world were charged by destiny with the work of educating and transforming large ignorant societies that were in many cases very young unwieldly states. Zimbabwe is one clear example, and the Gukurahundi had a parallel with Kenya's Shifta Wars or Uganda's troubles especially as encaspulated in the attack on Mengo and the Kabaka's ouster.
Now there was no way even the most callous leader could turn a blind eye to the need for more schools, hospitals, teachers and so on. Zimbabweans will hardly appreciate it, but their country was winning awards for the improvement of the lot of its people. Ian Smith had other priorities, as did the National Party. What Mbeki and Mugabe are faced with is a real meltdown, it has its genesis in the workings of the global system much more than it does in local problems.
Need I remind you that the food riots started in the early 1990s? Or that Zimbabwe's small scale farmers were the ones putting the bread into that basket?
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Zimbabwe Issue (Response)
written by Branded , July 25, 2007
Hi Stephen,
Its all about maintaining power: Food riots in Zimbabwe was a cover up of other deeply ingrained political issues that begun as far back as 1990 as you correctly put, definately your point is valid, but I also need to remind you that as history would have it, Majority of African leaders never want to cease power once they get into office by whatever means (coups, elections etc)
To what is in the article, I add that this is the problem Mugabe is facing, immediately he steps down as president, the whole world will be bailing for his blood. HE is their for his own protection.
look at Charles Taylor, need I mention the late Mobutu Sese Seko or Idi Amin for that matter?
(PS: This issue may be looked at from several perspectives, whatever root you take, you are right)
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Another response from (Ark-888
written by Branded , July 25, 2007
Stephen,
I got other responses that I believe would answer you pretty well:
Its from a reader Ark-888 who said...
I think the main reason for the state of Zimbabwe is because of the way Mugabe rules. Mugabe rules through corruption to expand and protect his power base and control over the country. The two books I have read that deal specifically with Mugabe both highlight this method of governorship that he has and has always had since 1980.

One of the books is Stephan Chan's book called "Robert Mugabe," the other one which I cant name now as it is sitting on a book shelf some where in Moscow (Don't ask) was a bit less academic and more readable but also highlights the same thing.

I don't think Mugabe will ever step down, his need for power seems pathological and is also motivated strongly by fear of what will happen to him if he looses power. Mugabe knows that the people hate him and given half a chance will tear him apart. That is why he travels with at least one full platoon (40) of soldiers where ever he goes in Zim. Apparently watching his convoy go buy is quite a sight.

Mugabe is in a tragic cyclical cycle; in order to protect him self he must have power, in order to preserve that power he must oppress the people and destroy the country, the more he does that the more the people hate him and the more he needs to protect him self.

If he does leave however and Zanu-PF takes over from him then I don't think things will get any better. Part of the way Mugabe has structured the system of patronage that keeps him in power, and destroys Zimbabwe, is to rope in and fully implicate those that he relies on for patronage. Its a lock in mechanism, it prevents his supporters, whether they be in the army, judiciary, or in politics, from turning around and betraying him.

Obviously it is more complicated then all that and I have just given a simplified version of what I think is going on but if I write any more I will land up writing a 300 page essay on it, and that might be a bit boring. :)
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Right on
written by Advocatus Diaboli , July 25, 2007
Excellent point Bwana. No contest there, just add on the economic sanctions, freezing of Zimbabwe's foreign assets and the short-lived New Labour 'ethical foreign policy' that with breath-taking hypocrisy ended the we-lend-you-money-to-pay-off-our-citizens-for-your-land deal.
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rabble rouser
written by kamau , July 25, 2007
Rejoice,

Loved your article, your articulated a point that we fail to acknowledge often in Africa. The generation that inherited government leadership from the colonialist was not ready or equipped to handle independence. The bruising effects of colonialism combined with stronger ethnic cultural identification than state identification rendered them useless to provide what African need most at the time, economic development. The economic, social and political degradation that happened repeatedly in most of Africa was bound to happen. It is not surprising either that as this “freedom” generation starts to die out we are seeing economic resurgence in many parts of Africa. We are getting to a more pragmatic less ideological stage that was required 40 years ago.
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written by Tim Norwood , July 25, 2007
Kamau,
I am very skeptical about the economic resurgence that you speak of. We have the same thing going on in Kenya, I am afraid it is more a symptom of global cycles than anything else. Kenya is not fundamentally different than it was in 2002, we are still planting the same old failed crops, propping up the same old strong shilling, we have not improved our infrastructure, we are still the same old sorry state. Is the economic growth anything but cosmetic? The whole world has seen an economic resurgence these past 5 or so years, it is not just us.

Branded,
Now you must be careful that you do not let Western fantasies of Mugabe cloud your vision. Anyone who thinks Mugabe is Hitler is definitely not objective. To reiterate what Stephen said, Mugabe like Mbeki has to distribute the income from the state of Zimbabwe to a whole nation, not to a select few like De Klerk and Ian Smith did before them.
As to power. Do you know any leader anywhere in the world who relinquishes power easily? Is it not a very human trait to want to cling on? Is not Mugabe justified in thinking that he must safeguard the revolution?

Have you any idea what potential Zimbabwe now has, given that it has solved once and for all the inequitable distribution of land. I mean seriously land reform is the unavoidable sine qua non of development. The food security is coming, and history will soon prove that Mugabe was right. You wait for it.
Corruption? Mugabe is likely worth as much as Prof. Julius Meme or any other odd KNH director. Please visit Kenya and consult with the locals about corruption, Zimbabwe knows nothing of it.

Advocatus Diabolicus,
You are right. Many Zimbabweans are totally oblivious of the real source of their troubles. The source of their inflation or the crumbling of their economy.
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written by Branded , July 26, 2007
Tim Norwood,
Am amazed by your thinking, Yes everyone knows all the basic things that Mugabe or any other leaders need to be doing...distribute wealth to a whole nation...Good.

One thing I wont dwell too much on is arguing over an issue that can be looked at from different perspectives, Incase you didnt read my first comment , I clearly indicated that (PS: This issue may be looked at from several perspectives, whatever root you take, you are right)

You are comparing Julius Meme and the likes, need I remind you that Mugabe is PRESIDENT (not minister) he controls wealth while Meme and cronies are mere civil servants who can be fired at will..hoewever corrupt they are, but Mugabe has created a situation where the chances of his ouster from power are almost zero.

About Leadership and relinquishing power, its the law..i.e..elections after a certain duration as per the constitution, You wanted an example....former South African President Mandela and Tanzania's Benjamin Mkapa I mean look at the big picture.

As i said let us not argue over a situation that can be looked at from different angle, if this was the case my response would have been

Oh my goodness this is what you think....quote "Have you any idea what potential Zimbabwe now has, given that it has solved once and for all the inequitable distribution of land".

You have no idea.
Thanks for your comment.
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Mugabe must go
written by Jayawardene , July 26, 2007
I am saddened to hear of the plight of my brothers and sisters in Zimbabwe.

I am saddened at what I read and hear of the total collapse of the system. A 'meltdown' that has been caused purely by the gluttony and perfidiousness of the leadership.

I am saddened at how an inspired liberating power soon became a totalitarian police state and used it's North Korean-trained 5th Brigade to commit war crimes against it's own population.

But what has caused me months of agony and heartache is the idea that some amongst us will fail to see the facts and instead will defend and make allowances for the brutal dictator called Mugarbage. Their disnformation and rewriting of history I find most irritating.

Patronage and corruption as witnessed in Kenya has been perfected in Zimbabwe. The Looters of Zimbabwe learnt well from other newly-independent states. They operate at the highest level.

The lands question has certainly not been resolved and blaming Britain and the rest for the failure of Zimbabwe is a classic response that the pigs on the animal farm employed.

The Mbekis, Kibakis and Gadaffis and all the other clown presidents may have their own reasons for tacitly supporting or failing to critisize Mugabe. Do we have an excuse?
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Perfect answer to reader Tim N
written by Branded , July 26, 2007
Jayawardene,
This is waht I was looking for, a Perfect answer to reader Tim Norwood's comment, that we are letting Western fantasies of Mugabe cloud our vision.

"............some amongst us will fail to see the facts and instead will defend and make allowances for the brutal dictator called Mugarbage. Their disnformation and rewriting of history I find most irritating........

Tim, thats just how it is!
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written by Stephen Wanyama , July 26, 2007
There is a wide gulf between supporting Mugabe, and calling out liars when you see them. Anyone who says Mugabe, Hitler, Idi Amin, etc in the same sentence is either extremely ignorant or a poor rhetorician who believes that merely regurgitating the news a la CNN or BBC is equivalent to wisdom.

Let us tackle the issues one by one then.
Firstly, Branded by using the examples of Nyerere, Mkapa, Masire, Konare and Mandela we can quickly dismiss your assertion that African leaders do not relinquish power easily. That you said so at all betrays the fact that a large part of your sentiment is informed by western stereotypes of Africa. I can just as easily point to the examples of Blair, Thatcher, Chirac, Mitterand and Kohl as examples of Western leaders who did not want to relinquish power.
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Extent of corruption.
Now, a quick trip down memory lane can quickly establish that Zimbabwean corruption is nowhere near the standards experienced anywhere else on the continent. Even the most strident critics of the Zimbabwe regime will admit this. Look up TI reports, Zimbabwe has only entered these bad leagues from the point of the forced land expropriations. Prior to that it was held up as a paragon of excellent governance. The leader of such a government can hardly be called a Hitler. Now, in present day Zimbabwe there is a lot of corruption, but even that is still nowhere close to what we routinely see in Kenya and Uganda. Can anyone search out the internet and come up with an AngloLeasing or Goldenburg in Zimbabwe?

AIDS, Famine,poor governance
Right, this is another front on which the Zimbabwean government is criticised heavily. Again, one must concede that there have been errors, many of them colossal. Still, is the situation as unique as the international press make out? Do Batswana, or Namibians, or SOuth Africans fare any better? Is not the famine Southern African rather than merely Zimbabwean? Does the oft repeated line, or chant about bread basket to basket case start in 1990 or does it start in 2001?

Why the double standards? How many people have been killed in clashes with the police or the authorities in Zimbabwe from the beginning of the troubles? How many more have been killed in Kenya in any one year since? Anyone remember Saba-Saba? Did we suffer sanctions because of those killings? What of the police brutality today towards Mungiki?

Democracy and rule of law,
Here's another. Now Zimbabwean courts regularly rule against Mugabe. Both in constitutional representations and in matters as mundane as the the schools drama from before. The Zimbabwean opposition in its heyday controlled up to 45% of the legislature, and the entire local governments of many regions including the Bulawayo Municipal one. Again this makes any comparisons with Amin or Hitler look rather foolish.

A mature criticism of the Zimbabwean government would revolve around such events as the Gukurahundi, attempts at fixing prices, suppression of the media, and so on. For me, Zimbabwe's greatest problem is the absence of a credible opposition. This is what sustains Mugabe in power more than anything else.

Why do we assume that SADC leaders are clowns? Did not Nyerere help kick Amin out of power? Why would Kenneth Kaunda support Mugabe? What is in it for him? Why would Jakaya Kikwete support Mugabe? What does he stand to gain? Is it not you the hyperbolists who need to pause and think?
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written by Stephen Wanyama , July 26, 2007
Is a thinking human being, one with a beating heart really supposed to see Robert Mugabe as a greater reason for concern than Tony Blair or George Bush? When you speak of blood on hands, does the sceptre of the Congo escape you?

Zimbabwean inflation.
OK, records have been broken blah, blah, blah. Now think for a moment, would the Zimbabwean government have caused this inflation? Cui bono? Really, cui bono?
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written by Tim Norwood , July 26, 2007
Branded, Jayawardene,
Please let's stick to the facts. Verifiable facts, numbers, economic theories. Calling Mugabe Hitler, or saying he has a pathological addiction to power is purely subjective and unverifiable. Mugarbage is funny, but it makes no sense at all. This is a place for reason and debate, not name-calling.

The Kenyan government recently pulled a vicious stunt on the country's second largest newspaper and regularly bullies the smaller ones. We have a brutal penal system, and a judiciary that is a cruel joke. Not a whimper from the international community. Even when we had the most terrible barbarity in Nyayo House, vicious ethnic clashes there was never a time Moi or Kenyatta was called Hitler.
During the Gukurahundi, Mugabe also escaped censure,indeed he was very busy collecting awards and honorary degrees. Strange that that does not clarify things here.

Branded,
In Kenya, we sometimes kill our parents for land. Black Zimbabweans seem to have a strange aversion to it, why? Like has been said again and again, land reform and food self-sufficiency are the sine qua nons of economic development. Namibia, South Africa, Kenya and Botswana are soon going to have to settle their accounts with their poor, and that day is coming.
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why the extreme inflation?
written by Milhous , July 26, 2007
Is this caused by the government printing too much money? WHy then has it not stopped? Are there other factors?
Will the recent measures to cap prices work at all? Remember Richard Milhous Nixon's wage and price controls? Remember Ford's Whip Inflation now programme?

Is it possible that Governor Gono's measures will work? After all prices do not rise on their own, someone somewhere is being mischevious. Three price rises a day are a little too much, even in the free-est economy.

What happens if the Zimbabwean government resorts to backing the Zimbabwean dollar with its mineral reserves? Say the new diamond deposits? Is it fiscal policy or monetary policy that rules in the end?
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written by emmo opoti , July 26, 2007
Sadly, even the measures aimed at reducing overall money supply will not work until Zimbabweans start to work those farms and export again. Without jobs and exports the government is extinguishing all its forex on public services, so even shifts in monetary policy will not offset the massive state spending.

I am 100% behind the land reform programme, as poorly managed as it was, however such measures will only benefit the people if they can start to replace the output from the old farmers. Otherwise you have all the money the government is pouring in, all the remittances from abroad, and very little to buy it with.

P.S. I think those calling Mugabe Hitler are very keenly aware of what it is they mean. It is an emotional denunciation, and is not supposed to be taken as a mark of equivalence, or is it?
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How to ruin a country
written by a guest , July 26, 2007
(..) food self-sufficiency are the sine qua nons of economic development.


That is indeed what Rhodesia had up the power transfer and still a few years longer as Zimbabwe, and what Mugabe has completely destroyed by now: food self-sufficiency.
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economic incompetence
written by emmo opoti , July 26, 2007
...... just add on the economic sanctions, freezing of Zimbabwe's foreign assets and the short-lived New Labour 'ethical foreign policy' that with breath-taking hypocrisy ended the we-lend-you-money-to-pay-off-our-citizens-for-your-land deal.

Here is the letter from Claire Short which the Advocate speaks off, that started it all,
I should make it clear that we do not accept that Britain has a special responsibility to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe. We are a new Government from diverse backgrounds without links to former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish and as you know we were colonised not colonisers.
We do, however, recognise the very real issues you face over land reform. We believe that land reform could be an important component of a Zimbabwean programme designed to eliminate poverty. We would be prepared to support a programme of land reform that was part of a poverty eradication strategy but not on any other basis.
I am told Britain provided a package of assistance for resettlement in the period immediately following independence. This was, I gather, carefully planned and implemented, and met most of its targets.
Again, I am told there were discussions in 1989 and 1996 to explore the possibility of further assistance. However that is all in the past.


and here's a link to Transparency International reports from 1999. Yes, Zimbabwe is at par with South Korea in this year, and far above Kenya, Uganda or Tanzania (like 45 places above). In 2000, it had dropped to 65th, by 2004 it was at 114th. You do not have to be a magician to join the dots, now do you?

So did Mugabe start stealing after the white farmers were kicked out? There have been many mistakes made in Zimbabwe, but it is also a victim of a bigger game. Close your eyes to it if you must, but tomorrow, it could be you.
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The trouble with Zimbabwe was a failure to adequately plan for the farm seizures. I believe given the British refusal to continue with their obligations there was an urgency to settle the issue, especially as the War Veterans threatened a civil war. However the Zim Reserve Bank did warn of the consequences of a swift change in farm ownership, the most important of which were the effect on the country's credit system ( we have seen from Asia, Argentina and Russia just how sensitive even the largest economies can be to disruptions in the financial system), a wiping out of a large element of the tax base and the flight of capital from the country. Add to this the fact that the aid freeze, and banishment from int'l lenders compelled the country to drastic measures. The very same thing could happen to Kenya tomorrow. When we were denied aid in the 1990s, the government took to borrowing to plug the shortfalls( even then we had massive inflation and ridiculous interest rates). In Zimbabwe, where almost all potential lenders were the white farmers and manufacturers, and where the government's ban from international lenders meant it could not borrow from other int'l sources, the effect was much more profound.

More than anything however, the Zimbabwean middle-class unlike the Kenyan one seems to have been reared looking down on farm-ownership. The bulk of those looking forward to taking over the farms were peasants who could NOT run them at all, let alone properly. This is the real tragedy of Zimbabwe, mismanaged land reforms, not some Hitlerite nonsense. The government was compelled to a rapid reaction, and lost its mind and bearings.

Zimbabwe tomorrow,
Someone above has suggested backing the ZimDollar with gold. Another suggestion is to do away with the Zim Dollar for a while and adopt another currency, preferably the S. A Rand.
Meanwhile, shrink the state's involvement in the economy, at least for some time.
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poverty reduction?
written by emmo opoti , July 26, 2007
The articles main thrust was about the need for diminished state involvement in the economy. I have always felt that I would be a libertarian in a rich country. In a poor country however, state intervention is necessary to get the engine of progress moving.
Seems silly to me that we are privatising Kenya-Re for example, gaining 2.4 billion from a company which could very well be paying a dividend of 300 million to the exchequer every year.
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written by Branded , July 27, 2007
Tim Norwood,
Hey, probaly got lost deep into the discussion, dont get me wrong, didnt mean to call any names. I apologise.
I second the fact that this place is for logic discussions.
Sorry if I veered off the road. I know you understand that sometimes debates can get out of hand, especially when you have no idea who you are talking to.
By the way, I just heard that Kenyan Members of parliament want to increase their salaries again, while some parts of the country are experiencing lowest poverty levels ever, what do you think about this?
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written by aeichener , July 27, 2007
I do not cease to be amazed about the increasing editorial recklessness displayed here and in other threads. Emmo Opoti, you are really going off the deep end. Your sympathy for Mugabe is one thing, vile as it is, but alas you are not alone with such base feelings.

What is worse in the context however, is the deletion of criticism against your rants, such as Jayawardene's truly excellent first posting. You sink lower and lower here.

Alexander
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Here is reasoned criticism
written by emmo opoti , July 27, 2007
But what has caused me months of agony and heartache is the idea that some amongst us will fail to see the facts and instead will defend and make allowances for the brutal dictator called Mugarbage. Their disnformation and rewriting of history I find most irritating....... clown presidents may have their own reasons for tacitly supporting or failing to critisize Mugabe. Do we have an excuse?


I guess it would salve your irritation if we did not live in the real world. One wonders why the Queen saw fit in 1994 to create Robert Mugabe a Knight of the Bath?

Let me make it absolutely clear that I do not at all support Mugabe or his government. That however does not preclude me from a realisation that a great deal of the bitterness and hyperbole dished at him is based on racist bitterness, especially from such people who even today think that Dedan Kimathi was a terrorist, and the British benevolent civilisers of the tribes. I concede like the Zimbabwean Vice President Msika recently did that the land reform programme was very poorly managed, and that it has led to widespread distress. It would be useful also if those calling Mugabe names acknowledged that his government had been forced down this path by firstly the neoliberal austerity measures of the Bretton Woods Institutions (which had a very profound effect on Kenya too), and secondly by the refusal of the Labour government to honour its commitment to finance the land reappropriation programme. The reappropriation of the farms, in this context was too large a blow for the economy to handle.

Now if we want to be children we can go about using words that are purely subjective and have no meaning whatsoever. Like has been said above, there is a lot going wrong in Zimbabwe, things the government can be rightly condemned for, without resort to hyperbole and outright fabrication. Only a fool would think for example that Thabo Mbeki, Guebuza, Kikwete and even the older men like Mandela, Mkapa, Kaunda and Chissano are not uncomfortable with the tragedy of Zimbabwe. Why are they not joining the silly cheerleading of Blair, Bush and Howard?

Branded,
Have you any particular recounting of the events of which we speak?
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Kudos All Round
written by Advocatus Diaboli , July 27, 2007
Jamaaas,

Just as an aside, discussions like this make me really proud to be Kenyan when we have such intelligent, informed and insightful comments tukijumuika pamoja.

Hopefully such success will not go the way of Lingala bands and briefcase political parties by being divided into a thousand pieces and cast to the four winds due to an overabundance of prima donnas - present company excepted :-).

Back to the discussion, we all know what the issues are in Zimbabwe and the causes thereof. Of course Mugabe is a consummate politician that will cling to power as long as he can as would anyone else in his position. This should not make us blind to the impact of sanctions on countries like Cuba, Nicaragua and Iraq between Gulf Wars.
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written by aeichener , July 27, 2007
It should also not make us blind to the positive impact of sanctions on Rhodesia and South Africa. It was the world community that forced Ian Smith out of power, not the luckless black resistance which was constantly, permanently beaten by the (brutal) Rhodesian armed forces.

The rest is a flimsy whitewashing attempt unworthy of even a rebuttal.

A.
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sorry is the hardest
written by Jayawardene , July 27, 2007
Rejoice Ngwenya's article has generated rising temperatures once again demonstrating that events in that country have a resonance with many folk and not just the great people of Zimbabwe. The title 'Zimbabwe needs Africa's help' is a call to arms to all who believe in Africa sorting out her own problems. It is a call to set aside our differences and pool our resources to get things working again.

In a forum of genuine discussion or debate there is a need for the Big Tent approach. Diverse viepoints must be welcomed, appreciated and treated with respect. Constructive criticism, a sign of maturity must be encouraged at every step. Those who take criticism with humility earn themselves enormous respect amongst their peers. A discussion can proceed along quite well without the introduction of the catalysts of insulting and demeaning language which sidetrack us from the original topic.

It was a regrettable error on my part to manufacture a deliberate typo which mis spelled Mugabe. To be fair nobody has likened Mugabe to a WWII German dictator here but that is not to say that he is a good man. The discussions that centre on numbers that were killed or displaced or disappeared by this or that leader are purely academic .....it is almost like saying....well this particular nawab killed 10,000 the one who ruled before him killed 35,000....a sort of UN double- talk that refuses to call a genocide until two more people are killed is ridiculous, in my view.


Fact: Robert Mugabe was a hero in his country's bitter war of independence

Fact: Zimbabwe is in a crisis and Wanjiku of Zimbabwe is bearing the brunt of it.

Fact: Urgent Land reform is necessary and must proceed with fairness

Fact: Mugabe is no longer the people's choice and cannot be part of the solution

Fact: Leaders have a sell-by date and Mugabe's has come too

Ngwenya suggests that the Africa's democratically elected leaders should continue to make representations to the regime to let them know that perhaps it was time for a change of guard. Quiet diplomacy is known to work miracles. We should not underestimate the capacities of SADC leaders as well as those the AU. Can Mugabe be persuaded to relinquish some of his powers and start meaningful reforms. Deals could be struck that could see Mugabe remain party leader but not president. His advancing years would also be an advantage to him because little would be served in prosecuting the octogenerian.

The onus then is on these other African leaders. Mugabe's grip on power - and by extension that of his cronies - is the stumbling block standing in the way of political and economic reforms that are much needed if Zimbabwe is to regain her important position in the world stage. Zimbabwe needs Africa's help but Africa needs Zimbabwe for all our future prosperity.
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Unwilling or Unable?
written by Advoctus Diaboli , July 28, 2007
Tacking adjectives onto nouns in lieu of argument and inability dressed as unwillingness may well be a fun game to play in the wendy houses and sand-pits of this world.

What is this 'world community' spoken of? Where is the headquarters? Who are its spokespersons? Is it any different fron the UN? suppose Peru, Papua New Guinea, Sri Lanka, China and Botswana all together vied for the voice of this magical community, would they drown out France, or the United Kingdom?

Whitewash is sweeping centuries of history under the carpet and closing one's eyes to current affairs and the foreseeable future.

For instance, just because freed blacks owned slaves in the USA does not mean that slavery affected all men and races equally therefore blame is diffuse and to be shared. To say this would be to be wilfully ignorant in confusing cause and effect, victim and victimiser, propaganda and information, and truth and falsehood.

Mugabe is a study in realpolitik right from the pre-independence days of getting rid of rivals from within his own party and ethnicity. What is so different now?

I simply can't wait for the cheerleaders of 'humanitarian intervention' to welcome with flowers and sweets tanks sweeping through Harare in the name of justice for the victims of the Matabeleland masscres. Who will then hide their faces when Chikurubi Maximum Security Prison becomes the new Abu Ghraib and mutter 'the Zimbabweans did not stand up when the foreign armies stood down and instead engage in sectarian warfare and eschew western style democracy'. Woe to the conquered
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Unemployed rhetoric
written by Jayawardene , July 28, 2007
There is a place for satire and the advocate of the prince of darkness does not do half measures. The tanks,flowers and sweets were a nice touch but No! we must not help Wanjiku because/incase we then end up with a Zimbabwean Abu Ghraib....or heaven forbid, an insurgency.

The original topic still stands. Africans must do all they can to support the people of Zimbabwe.

To imply that anyone who does not support Mugabe is racist or a victim of racist BBC and CNN bias is lazy and reckless. I guess it boils down to a simple thing: Let us use facts to back up our arguments whilst avoiding the pitfall of characterising those with whom we disagree with the trendy terms of the day hyperbole, emotional, immature wendy-house and sandpit dweller type catch-phrases. Any argument that truly holds water will always stand up just as cream always rises to the top. I see no sense in a speaker standing up and saying to an auidience:you are too thick to understand what I am about to say. LOL

Let us demonstrate that we can conduct a debate in good cheer.
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L\'étendard sanglant est leve
written by aeichener , July 28, 2007
Jayawardene:

The satirical part (how to relativize and ultimately whitewash a dictator and still pretend to be reasonable) has been taken by Emmo, in his various postings, and he feels very comfortable and smug with it. So be it, there are enough Africans thinking und unfeeling like him.

Our advocatus diaboli however, is not up to satire. S/he may just think that contrariety provokes reasoned response, and unveils weaknesses in argumentation, that why s/he chose the name from canon law (sanctification processes).

As to Mugabe, it may be helpful to have a look at how dictators and madmen (the two terms need certain not be equated, although the former not infrequently turns into the latter, and in Africa just a wee bit more often than let's say in Latin, America, Asia or Europe) in the past have been deposed and been ousted by outside interventions. I have cited the example of Idi Amin. The problem with "foreign interventions" on our continent is that they either do not happen at all, or much much too late. And in the past, they were often used to stabilize and cement neo-colonial systems of exploitation (especially in francophone Africa), rather than to improve the condition of a country and its people(s).

Alexander
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Suitably Chastened
written by Advocatus Diaboli , July 28, 2007
The necessary facts have already been more or less comprehensively laid out above. The inferences to be made and interpretations to be followed are vigourously disputed. This means that we all seek to persuade as we cannot convince and can even settle for clarifying the terms of the dispute. Rhetoric, metaphor, satire, nini, are all legitimate as we joust. That said, I do respect the alternative point of view of not identifying with and cosying up to dictators with a high melanin quotient.

Surely a passing acquaintance with canon law would make clear the parallels current arguments on humnitarian intervention have with the much discredited 'just war theory'. This is just the latest stalking horse underneath which they shoot their missiles.

Mugabe has done more to help Zimbabwean Wanjiku than any number of persons we would want to intervene. Let us look at the facts dispassionately and leave ideology aside for the moment. Wife beating may be evil but a neighbour who intervenes, shoots the husband, rapes the wife and daughter then makes off with the television is not to be applauded for reducing wife-beating.
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written by aeichener , July 28, 2007
It is true that Robert Mugabe had (had, not has) done more to help Zimbabwean Wanjiku than e.g. Thabo Mbeki.

It is also true - truer, actually - that he has done and is still is doing much, much more to harm her than any of the would-be interventors.

Alexander
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red herrings, and the facts
written by Stephen Wanyama , July 29, 2007
No one far as I can see is supporting Mugabe's government. However, putting tags like Amin or Bokassa on him is pure cheap emotional tripe. Notice that those who are calling him names know very little about Zimbabwe at all.

Jaya,
I agree, we should debate purely in terms of facts. CNN and BBC and the other Western media carry real fantasy stories about Zimbabwe. They do have an interest in this after all. Does anyone who knows anything about Africa know of a more despotic leader than Yoweri Museveni? Is he not just the belle of the ball? Remember the story about Zimbabweans being denied food-aid for opposing Mugabe? Well here is CSM's rendition (note the WFP's strident denial at the end), and here is a similar story in the Beeb, and on ABC Australia ( again notice the WFP's strident denial in the story- saying it has thoroughly investigated the claims). The headline says it all though does it not? But these were serious charges, so the UK Parliament looked into them some more, what after all could be more criminal than starving people to death merely for not supporting you. Still the aid agencies strongly denied it, including Save the Children, Christian Aid and WFP. Scroll to the bottom of the link.

On the slum clearances, also known as Muramabtsvina, I do not think I can put it more eloquently than did Werner Daum, one time German Ambassador to the Sudan who in his famous essay Universalism and the West, said
In Sudan, its capital, Khartoum, like all capitals in Africa, has experienced an enormous influx of people from the countryside—probably more than two million in the last 10 years. The government has reacted with a very assertive policy, the only one of its kind in all of Africa: squatter settlements and slums have been systematically destroyed, with no participation from the people concerned. The removed population was resettled in the city’s periphery, where every family has received title to a small plot of land. As a result, Khartoum, with six million inhabitants, is one of the few big cities in Africa without favelas, or shantytowns, and thus without the crimes associated with large slum areas. Khartoum, unlike Nairobi, Lagos, and Johannesburg, protects the human right not to be killed in the street.


There's also stories about concentration camps. Look them up, they have all vanished, the ones remaining have the words in quotation marks. No new reports about such. Evidently the Int'l Press did its best to hype up the issue.

Zimbabwe does have real problems though. Its police force is brutal, there is a severe shortage of basic commodities caused in part by inefficiencies of distribution, and in part by the government's price caps.

Good work that it is now clear we all know that Mugabe did a lot to improve the lot of the poor Zimbabweans. That fact by itself dismisses any comparisons with Bokassa and Amin.

P.S For a madman Mugabe sure has won many accolades over the years.

P.S, in the general spirit of good-naturedliness, pole to all whose toes I have stepped on. Was not intended.
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Mugabe is racist
written by emmo opoti , July 29, 2007
I have proof. Here's a video from CBS archives. He was quite chummy with the West in these days, he was delaying reforms, keeping the Brits happy you know, even promising that South Africa would do the same. Yes, they sent Dan Rather to see him, and shock of shocks he had Ian Smith still alive and well, and free, unharassed even.
The parallels with Amin keep mounting. Oh and that knighthood, he conferred that on himself!! Yep, just up and gave it to himself, all the degrees and honorary degrees also.
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written by emmo opoti , July 30, 2007
Lizzie did confer upon Robert Gabriel Mugabe his Honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath in 1994. Membership of the Order is of three kinds, Knights or Dames Grand Cross, Knight or Dame Commanders and Companions. Mugabe is a KCB.

p.s, he is also a great fan of cricket, and patron of the Zimbabwean Cricket Union.
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written by aeichener , July 30, 2007
You are wrong, as I said. The honorary membership does *not* endow its bearer with a knighthood, not even a personal one. Only the ordinary membership. Is this relevant? Only insofar as it shows that the image of the dictator has waned, and that he previously was sought after and flattered quite a bit. Which, again, is a very typical phenomenon of African dictators. Or of formerly esteemed politicians who eventually become dictators (compare the case of Museveni).
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written by emmo opoti , July 30, 2007
Well, you seem to be the only one alive who does not think it was a knighthood. Even the British Parliamentarians call it an honorary knighthood, and yes a KCB is a knighthood.
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Temper, Temper
written by Savco , July 31, 2007
@aeichener
Pardon me, did I touch a raw nerve there Mr. Green Tea? it seems I've now acquired a semi-literate tag (I guess that's my equivalent of a Knighthood!), I don't care much for titles anyway.

However, I'd still like you to answer my question. After all that's what civilized literate people like you are supposed to do. So how does your "handbook for revolutions in small African countries" suggest we deal with Mugabe's allies some who are as influential as he is? I'd appreciate if you took time out to answer my query. Only then will I be able to ascend the food chain and join literates like yourself. Seriously you need to stick to the topic. No need for name calling. It doesn't reinforce your point, quite the opposite.

In case you didn't notice you are the only person on this forum losing their cool. Focus, you can do it!
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Is that right?
written by Advocatus Diaboli , July 31, 2007
...As I said, Mugabe could be easily ousted. Arrested or simply shot. One certainly does not need a large-scale foreign intervention to achieve this long-overdue goal. Even a small determined group would suffice. Alexander

Ati? I take it you've not heard of these chaps yet then?
Some cassocked fellows have, as well as would-be-coup-plotters, assasination plotting oppositionists as well as a captured South African intelligence agent or two...
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Which future for Zimbabwe?
written by aeichener , July 31, 2007
Do your research. Takes 5 mins.

While that keeps you busy, the others can ponder about Zimbabwe.

1. As I said, Mugabe could be easily ousted. Arrested or simply shot. One certainly does not need a large-scale foreign intervention to achieve this long-overdue goal. Even a small determined group would suffice. But what then?
2. In spite of its bouts and spurts of ideology appealing to the basest instincts of the presumed recipients of such propaganda, Mugabe's regime is largely a "personal rule" in classical dictatorial sense. There are cronies and beneficiaries, but neither a strongly organized apparatus, nor a coherent ruling class or ruling estate.
3. Due to its ethnic structure, Zimbabwe seems less likely to collapse in internal strife or civil war, after the exit(us) of its dictator. Neither the fates of Angola nor of Zaire/Congo are thus to be feared. While there are indeed a few more than the two main ethnia Shona and Ndebele, the smaller ones do not account for much.
4. Rhodesians will not return anyhow; but what would be needed, is the return of a number of the expropriated and exiled large Zimbabwean farmers (most of them white, a few black).
5. It appears that the exitus of the Asians of Zimbabwe seems stopped, and that even some new ones arrive now. Is that correct?

Alexander
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Kudos pt. 2
written by Savco , July 31, 2007
I came into this debate late. However, having lived in Zimbabwe during those turbulent times I learnt a lot about our predicament as Africans that most Kenyans are shielded from.

Basically in Zimbabwe, the party portrayed as demons are not fully demons and the party portraying themselves as angels are not fully angels. I'm impressed by the balanced arguments made by Advocatus Diaboli, Emmo, Tim, Stephen Wanyama, Jayawardene et al. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Whenever Americans find out I lived in Zim they want to ask me all these leading questions to confirm their fears. I always try give a balanced presentation but that usually takes at least an hour and the events are too intricate for most people to follow - so they aptly lose interest. Maybe I need to come up with memes such as bread-basket/basket-case that the BBC popularized in Zim's case, any suggestions anyone?

Bus seriously, why do Westerners insist on discussing Zim as if it exists in a vacuum? By vacuum I mean they always disregard Zim's internal/regional/international politics. The war veterans, the Commercial Farmers Union, the Mugabe succession issue etc and the fact that that whole southern Africa region is sitting on an explosive land issue.

Also the fact that there are still remnants of British Empire in Africa are completely ignored. But then again if there's one thing you can trust a Westerner to do is to look out for their own interests, period. And so it's time for us Africans to look after our own selfish interests and if anyone questions us we tell them sio kwa ubaya.

@aeichener
Do you really think killing Mugabe is the solution? I used to live near the State House and had to put up with his security all the time! If you think Moi had a security apparatus then you haven't seen Mugabe's. The Brits would have already done it, again out of self interest.

Anyway suppose you get rid of him, what do you suppose you do with the Emmerson Mnangangwas, the Joyce and Solomon Mujurus and the Vitalis Zvinavashes? Bribe them for their loyalty? Or does your "manual for revolutions in small African countries" dictate that once you engage and dispose the alpha male, the other beta males will supplicate themselves to the new top dog in town.
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re: Mugabe is racist
written by aeichener , July 31, 2007
Oh and that knighthood, he conferred that on himself!! Yep, just up and gave it to himself,

He did not receive a knighthood, but the honorary membership of the Bath Order was indeed bestowed upon him, as upon many other foreign dignataries.

A.
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re: Non-readers
written by aeichener , July 31, 2007
it seems I've now acquired a semi-literate tag (I guess that's my equivalent of a Knighthood!)

Not really. While maybe both tags are equal in value, it is insofar not equivalent as the last knight discussed here (the president of a certain basket case country) is actually very literate. Whether he is better able to read than you, I cannot conclusively assert. But one would hope so.
However, I'd still like you to answer my question.

Nope. *I* have asked the question. So, it does beg an answer, but not from you. And a mindless repetition of my question from a semi-illiterate is not needed.
Only then will I be able to ascend the food chain

But why should you? The food chain needs a broad base. Please kindly stay put. Merci.

Alexander
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written by aeichener , July 31, 2007
Jayawardene calls for African solidarity. He is right. Such solidarity should be a feeling of brotherhood among peoples, not a connivance among potentates, which it has been too long. One can very rightfully call Mugabe a dictator (contrary to let's say a Thabo Mbeki or a Mwai Kibaki) and one can also rightfully differentiate between dictators of varying degrees of evil. Not every burning down of a village is a Shoah, not every imprisonment of a critic is already a bloody terror regime of oppression. But strong language and public chastisement have their place sometimes - as they also had against Moi - and silent but efficient diplomacy can have other occasions when it should be applied.

Mugabe is a vile and despicable despot; with blood on his hands, and the substances in his cranium I will not even name. Hanging or shooting him would be just fine. Or, better said: it would be just and fine.

But this would not automatically end the plight of the Zimbabwean people. Evidently. Yet, simply folding hands and waiting until he eventually dies peacefully with 105 years of age, is not a solution.

To oust Mugabe by force is good. As it was good in the case of Idi Amin, who unfortunately did not pay for his crimes, but was allowed to escape to a luxurious and comfortable exile (as initially was Bokassa, too). What is necessary afterwards, is a quick and harsh "clean swipe", and then a joint building up. The potential that Zimbabwe had in 1980, is in shambles. Much of this potential has been really destroyed; but at least part of it could be rebuilt.

Alexander
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written by aeichener , July 31, 2007
Jayawardene mentioned the so-called Southern Africa Develop Community and asked for its action.

Well... I really liked Rejoice's Ngwenya's caustic take on this institution in another article of his available on the 'Net:

"Zimbabwean activists are now resigned to institutions such as the United Nations (UN), African Unity (AU) and Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) which are nothing but expensive congregations of harmless penguins.

African delegates gladly collaborate in this deadly symphony of deception by vetoing anti-fascist resolutions. When it comes to global warming, the extermination of Palestinians, violation of women's rights in Saudi Arabia and the Chinese plundering resources in Africa by sacrificing political expediency at the altar of business sense, the US government exhibits similar tendencies of double-faced showmanship manifested in reckless abuse of its veto powers."

Just like Thabo Mbeki's quiet diplomacy, the UN's culture of corrosive tolerance casts itself as fatal collusion with fascist dictatorships.

Alexander
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written by Kamale , July 31, 2007
Rambai Makashinga???
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Napoleon complex?
written by Savco , August 01, 2007
Alexander, I can see you have deleted the post where you hurled an unprovoked insult at me. Glad to see reason setting in at last. It would have been nice though if you left a note explaining your actions instead of having two of my post appearing consecutively. For the sake of integrity put up a label explaining your actions. I suggest "This post has been deleted as it does not meet Kenya Imagine's standards".

For someone keen on deposing the dictator, you seem to employ very heavy handed tactics against your opposition. Hurling insults (not at Blair), not tolerating opposing views and attempted intimidation (you can lose our cool as much as you want. Go ahead blow a gasket, doesn't faze me!) All you need now is a little tin-pot African country, I guess for now Kenya Imagine will have to do.
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Don\'t delete this one
written by Savco , August 01, 2007
Alexander, I can see you have deleted the post where you hurled an unprovoked insult at me. Glad to see reason setting in at last. It would have been nice though if you left a note explaining your actions instead of having two of my post appearing consecutively. For the sake of integrity put up a label explaining your actions. I suggest "This post has been deleted as it does not meet Kenya Imagine's standards".

For someone keen on deposing the dictator, you seem to employ very heavy handed tactics against your opposition. Hurling insults (not at Blair), not tolerating opposing views and attempted intimidation (you can lose your cool as much as you want. Go ahead blow a gasket, doesn't faze me!) All you need now is a little tin-pot African country, I guess for now Kenya Imagine will have to do.

Oh and don't delete this one again. Otherwise you'd sink to the same level as the editors of Kenyan newspapers.
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the donatist
written by editor , August 02, 2007
Savco,
Failing a witty response, I can only say that it was the faceless editor and not Alexander who nixed his comment.We also express our umbrage at the slur, unintentional or not published in your last post. Sheathed as it is, we find however that we cannot delete it.

Alexander is no longer an editor here, he has not been for a while, hence his constant attacks on the newspaper and its editors.
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Why Augustine?
written by aeichener , August 02, 2007
Since 22nd May precisely, when the new editorial policy of KI made it impossible to continue in good conscience; it just took Emmo a while to realize that. In the meantime, he has confirmed "Savco"'s last prediction.

As to Donatism, I am more embracing the Catholic position as to the first tenet of the dogmatic strife. And there was not even a persecution here, but a voluntary apostasy. Such lapses can be reconciled, as the mainstream Church teaches against Donatus, but this mandatorily requires previous penance, and re-acceptance of faith. Both are ostensibly lacking, apostasy continues ;-). The sacramental parallel (a second tenet of Donatism) does not apply: while journalists may consider their work an apostolic one (ahem...), they hardly can be said to dispense sacraments.

From Donatism back to Zimbabwe. We have an author who is a Zimbabwean and really lives there, and a foreign-based Savco who only pretends to have been in Zimbabwe some time in the past. Flimsy pretence.
So, as to the consequences of a successful disposition of Mugabe (be it a coup, be it popular uprising with brief trial and swift hanging of the former dictator), Zimbabwe does have a rather strong civil society, and - contrary to Kenya - a working court system. Also, there was a framework of functioning institutions until recently. The situation thus is not comparable to post-independence Congo or Angola, and allows a more positive outlook to a future after and without Mugabe. What will be first needed, is economic recovery. Then, a tackling of land issues, but without the racist populism on which Mugabe tried to feed.

Alexander
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My Apologies
written by Savco , August 02, 2007
Editor,
Thank you for your clarification. I found it very helpful. I'd also like to apologize to all the readers I may have offended in the process of trying to protect my freedom of speech.

KI is a wonderful paper and a great resource not just for Kenyans but for all Africans. Keep up the good work.
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Meme Request
written by Winston Smith , August 03, 2007
Si we can start spreading a meme right here that the word 'Mzungu' essentially means land grabber. It is etymologically derived from 'zunguka' to mean somebody that goes round. In this case goes around the world taking other people's land. Proof is in the settling of Canada, Australia, the USA, South Africa New Zealand, etc.

After all, it hardly gets out that the very word 'meme' was coined by someone born in Kenya.
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fans of Dawkins
written by Tim Norwood , August 03, 2007
And I thought it was just us! So Winston old chap, do you think you and his eminence Cardinal Dawkins have a thing in common? What does he think of Robert Mugabe the Catholic?
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No, I\'m a Believer
written by Winston Smith , August 03, 2007
I wouldn't presume to speak for the esteemed Oxford don but would bet good money that he would have a grudging respect and admiration to that wily old anglophile Mugabe who realised Englishness was a meme and not in the genes and therefore raised it into an art form. Further, Mugabe did not let his doubtless strong faith preclude him from the dreadful business of sanitising the church by revealing the archbishop's 'short-comings' (if you'll pardon the atrocious double pun). A dirty job, but the president has to do it.

As an aside, Dawkins has done good work in his time, but for an unbeliever he sure is a zealot. He was probably Savonarola in a previous life. What say you Timmie old bean?
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Shona man\'s castle
written by Tim Norwood , August 03, 2007
Steady now. Granted Dawkins does get a little carried away now and then, as would anyone confronted by the Sky Pixies and the theories of the herds. Still his mind is in the right place, for modern society to free itself from the shackles of belief, the enlightened may have to eschew their pacifism and shatter the clay gods ( Sky Pixies). Still, it would be dishonest to pretend that Dawkins has not taken on something of a beard and a staff, held by many as a sort of modern day Moses of the unfaithful.

Say, what particular Pixie won your heart?
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Another Thread Perhaps?
written by Winston Smith , August 03, 2007
Thanks to the particular bunch of missionaries that won the foot race to my village, I was baptised Catholic and genuflect to 'Paparatzi' as those beloved British tabloids irreverently christened him.

Thing is, Dawkins does not draw a distinction between religion and God (or gods). He describes religion and then calls that God which is, admitably, the opposite of the clerics who describe God and then call it religion. He is a good antidote to religiosity but no substitute for religion.

The majority of us cannot be law abiding without ethics, nor have ethics without morality, nor have morality without religion. This core reason in itself is worth reams of atheistic writing. We are not all sophisticated enough to construct value systems whole from the ground up each time our desires conflict with our duty.

By the way, thanks for not retaliating by calling me 'Winnie old bean'. A chap would not be able to live that down. Someone pass me a chai latte
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oh behave!!
written by Tim Norwood , August 03, 2007
Another thread will do nicely, and more power to the rottweiler's elbow, he is doing far more than Dawkins ever could by turning on the churches. Now here's a dog whose bark IS worse than his bite.
In our clubs (converted from abandoned chruches), we atheists are sitting back and watching the slugfest. A little concerned it must be said (secular moralism rules) but it is not the worst thing when your enemies turn on each other.

P.S. I am most persuaded that the majority of Bishops in Western Europe are in fact atheists. Have you heard of Spong of Newark? Also I find that many modern day Christians are drawn to the pantheism of the East, even against their will- and that is a form of atheism.
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The First Shall be Last
written by Winston Smith , August 03, 2007
'For how long, shall the residents of Kenyaimagine bait the editors?' (said in the best Emmanuel Juma voice).

As if! We Wacha, Ratzinger bats for your side right from his days in the Hitler Jugend to manning anti-aircraft guns. The west, in Chinua Achebean terms, are challenging their chi to a fight having had a good meal. We no longer follow their lead. The real American churches for example are under the Nigerian and Kenyan synods. If this is not a fulfillment of prophesy, the Tutsi bombed pearl harbour.

You're an author, just start a new thread already, though as it is KI may have slightly more chiefs than indians and more cops than robbers.
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South Africa blames UK for Zim
written by Advocatus Diaboli , August 13, 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimb...03,00.html
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