mass action next week threats
written by magothe , February 20, 2008

Reuters and the BBC report that the ODM is planning a reversion to mass action starting next week if things do not go their way at the negotiating table.
Link here

re: mass action next week thre
written by Wuod Aketch , February 20, 2008

Reuters and the BBC report that the ODM is planning a reversion to mass action starting next week if things do not go their way at the negotiating table.
Link here

Kibaki and PNU should stop wasting our time. He is not supposed to be the president - ECK does not know who won. But we can use some other yardsticks like the majority in parliament to chose the temporary president until next elections.
Even this proposition will not please the bwana at state house and his followers of PNU.
Kibaki make the majority of Kenyans happy by resigning.

re: mass action next week thre
written by a guest , February 20, 2008

Reuters and the BBC report that the ODM is planning a reversion to mass action starting next week if things do not go their way at the negotiating table.
Link here

What do you do when diplomacy fails? I have posed this question before and will appreciate PNU supportes to sincerely give an answer.

If PNU and ODM's roles were reversed today, will we still call for a powerful president?

Are we really at home with our current constitution that we would want any deal struck in line with it?

Do we want to build Kenya that is favourable to us only today and not tommorow?

Unnecessary
written by pushka , February 20, 2008

In Kenya, apparently, the concept of peaceful demonstration is impossible to grasp.

Simply put "Peaceful Mass action" = "Chao's, teargas, rungu's and loss of life"

What ever happened to letting the negotiations conclude. It is wrong for Kibaki to issue a statement but its unforgivable for Nyongo (and ODM) to threaten mass action.

anonymouse
written by Timothy Wainaina , February 20, 2008

No one in Kenya is opposed to weakening the presidency. I would not normally be against power sharing, in fact I am all for it. Kibaki has already shown he is not averse to the idea, he has appointed Kalonzo who attacked him the whole of last year as Vice President has he not?
He has left 17 Cabinet slots for the ODM, no?

What we do not want, what we cannot allow is people using violence as a cudgel to get to positions of power. From day one, Raila has been threatening a Tsunami, then he threatened an Ivory Coast, last weekend he was threatening, the other one he was permitting people to kill the Gikuyu. Have you ever heard Kibaki make any such statements, ever? No, instead he appoints a Luo as top diplomat, he sends another one to the top diplomatic position in Washington DC. Even now during this period of hatred, he appoints a Luo to head the relief effort.

How can a man become the head of a household he is determined to destroy? What do mama mbogas in Kibera think of the latest invitation to mayhem? What do the business people in Kisumu whose businesses are now recovering make of it? What do these farmers in the Rift Valley have to say about it, they cannot get their milk and tea to market? Will they eat oranges all year?

Raila needs to get with the 90s, oops, we are even past that.

...
written by mkosakabila , February 20, 2008

Will they eat oranges all year?
Raila needs to get with the 90s, oops, we are even past that.

we were told, and i quote, they are subsisting on goat meat, end of quote. oranges and only add roughage for maisha bora.

can\'t have parallel govts
written by magothe , February 20, 2008

Can a Kenyan please be honest and tell me how they expect a government containing for example the RV warlord and Martha Karua will work? Will ODM ministers be reporting to Odinga and PNU ones to Kibaki? Who will decide when there are competing priorities? What will happen where say the whole cabinet has to sign off on a particular action point?
And please, Wuod 4m+ of the 8m voters voted for Kibaki so can you drop that majority of Kenyans nonsense? One can also say that the majority of Kenyans would be happy if Odinga accepted to start work on being the best Opposition leader Kenya ever had.

Kibaki is not in control!
written by Isindu Mwangaza , February 20, 2008

Can a Kenyan please be honest and tell me how they expect a government containing for example the RV warlord and Martha Karua will work? Will ODM ministers be reporting to Odinga and PNU ones to Kibaki? Who will decide when there are competing priorities? What will happen where say the whole cabinet has to sign off on a particular action point?
And please, Wuod 4m+ of the 8m voters voted for Kibaki so can you drop that majority of Kenyans nonsense? One can also say that the majority of Kenyans would be happy if Odinga accepted to start work on being the best Opposition leader Kenya ever had.

Kibaki must accept the terms. Thats the solution. Incidentally, the victory of 4m+ was superimposed so please, "drop that nonsense".

...
written by Mr. Vikii , February 20, 2008

Anonymous, like Tim tells you, nobody is against devolved executive power. Nobody fancies a powerful presidency. I for one, was opposed to the Amos Wako draft because it did not grant parliament any role in vetting public appointments by the President. I voted against that draft and also influenced a few other people to reject it.

What we dont like, Anonymous, is this blind belief some of you have that having a Prime minister on the same power footing with the President is equal to weakening the Presidency. Having Raila Odinga hire and fire his own people in government does in no way weaken the Presidency. What we should be striving to achieve is to get the President answerable to the people of kenya through an institution like parliament. Our problem with a powerful presidency is not about how many appointments he makes and that is why we do not understand the hurry in making Raila an appointing authority too.

When you say we are opposed to a weak Presidency, you are not telling the truth because the President himself has pledged his committment to have the constitution overhauled within 12 months. If this review of the constitution is being done with the interests of Kenyans at heart then 12 months is not an eternity. Kofi Anan should take cue and agree to oversee the review. However, if the review is being done purely to create jobs for individuals, then the President and the people of Kenya should have no business supporting such fraud.

Every member of Parliament has sworn to defend the constitution. You canot have some doctrines passed in Kilaguni replace the constitution as the supreme law of the land. Anyang Nyong'o should be intelligent enough to understand that a constitutional ammendment requires 2/3 approval by members of parliament. He should be lobbying, sometimes persuading members of Parliament to pass the ammendments not trying to intmidate them with possible mass action. Members of Parliament have constituencies that they represent. They cannot be forced by anybody, and that includes Nyong'o, George Bush and kofi Anan, to ammend the constitution if they are convinced that is not in the interest of the nation.

Wuod Aketch, did you say a majority of Kenyans want Kibaki out? Who really are these Kenyans? The last time I checked Kibaki got over 4.5 million and Kalonzo(who had been under immense pressure from his people to abandon his campaign and support the President) got more than 800k votes. This against Raila Odinga's 4.3 million votes clearly shows that shouting the loudest doesnt necessarily mean you have the majority. Even the fake ECK headed by Musalia Mudavadi (The one that announced its fake results which should curiously be our reference point at the Norfolk Hotel) clearly indicated that Raila had gannered 47% of the votes cast. That is not a majority, Aketch. Unless some of us who voted against him are not Kenyans, then he should stop insinuating that he represents a majority of the people of Kenya. Kibaki and Kalonzo represent the majority and the sooner we understand that the better.

...
written by Mr. Vikii , February 20, 2008

Willing to do what, Mwangaza? They should not move an inch and endorse neo-imperialism. We should be proud of the PNU's steadfastness in defending our sovereignty.

re: mass action next week thre
written by Isindu Mwangaza , February 20, 2008

Reuters and the BBC report that the ODM is planning a reversion to mass action starting next week if things do not go their way at the negotiating table.
Link here

The difference is PNU does not move an inch. They have yet to move an inch to make concessions or indicate that they are willing.

what was this about
written by Ndorobo , February 20, 2008

I thought the line being sold by the opposition was that Kenyans voted for change. I do not recall the PM post being one of those changes that Kenyans voted for. Where does this talk of a PM come from? So ODM throws a temper tantrum and we are supposed to give them toys? This is a bad precedent as has being pointed out. Losing an election and then threatening violence and actually delivering on that promise does not mean you get power, in my opinion, it means you should get jail time.

I support the vetting of presidential appointmments. I support a more active role of the legislature. I support the devolving of funds to address local issues. I do not support the throwing out of a constitution to fit the whims of a pentagon of 6. I do not support the lack of an opposition that vets the government. The official leader of the opposition should do what a good number of Kenyans elected him to do - his job. Therefore I support Kibaki's position that a constitution needs more time. Time for tempers to cool down. Time to write and review the constitution as opposed to piece-meal changes. The constitution is a sacred document that should not be applicable some of the time but at all times. Setting a precedent of contravening it in our country when it seems disadvantegous is dangerous. To paraphrase Bob Marley, the constituion does not apply to some people some of the time, it applies to all the people all the time.

BTW, on this election thing. Kina Orengo and Karua (learned comrades in law) pulled an all nighter scrutinizing the ballots? What happened to that? I think they agreed to announce the results? Why do the ODM representatives during this vetting process not tell us what happened or what they found?

re:
written by Isindu Mwangaza , February 20, 2008

Willing to do what, Mwangaza? They should not move an inch and endorse neo-imperialism. We should be proud of the PNU's steadfastness in defending our sovereignty.

Proud, you are kidding me! Even wildebeest are proud as the lunge across the Mara irrespective of the odds and guaranteed looses! Is this your mantra?

...
written by Mr. Vikii , February 20, 2008

What losses, Mwangaza? You seem to be listening too much to the now tired line of "there will be no business as usual". We are not only a sovereign nation, Mwangaza, but also a self sufficient economy-at least as far as paying our own bills is concerned. I agree we may need them as business partners, but wait a minute. Do you know how much business the US and Britain are doing with a dictatorship like North Korea? Their threats, my friend are nothing but hot air. China is today led by the world's fourth worst dictator and it is the second biggest trading partner of the US after Canada. The US owes them hundreds of billions of dollars. If they can do business with these dictatorships, if they can borrow money from these governments (obviously you don't borrow from someone you dont recognize), what gives you the idea that they have the moral authority to even suggest the kind of government that suits us?

No State is an Island
written by Isindu Mwangaza , February 20, 2008

I respect your position on sovereignty. I'm a Kenyan first! I disagree full heardy about Kenya's ability to sustain itself irrespective of the big picture. Question is, for how long will you hold that position? I'm certain you are aware of the social-economic facts of your argument!

re: anonymouse
written by Cindy , February 20, 2008

No one in Kenya is opposed to weakening the presidency. I would not normally be against power sharing, in fact I am all for it. Kibaki has already shown he is not averse to the idea, he has appointed Kalonzo who attacked him the whole of last year as Vice President has he not?
He has left 17 Cabinet slots for the ODM, no?

Appointing Kalonzo does not neccesaarily amount to 'weakening the presidency'. If Kibaki is all for that, why is he procrastinating? As a head of state, it is imperative that he becomes part of the solution. Time to stop the pathetic blame game. And of course, this is not the '90s anymore - time to get a new pair of glasses.

Cindy

So much for the "people\'s
written by Kanyoni ka Nja , February 21, 2008

it's been two months already. Why hasn't Raila spoken to his people especially in Lang'ata to encourage peace and reconciliation? No matter how much people postulate that he's the future of Kenya, I will remain sceptical... He and his Pentagon people are part of the establishment. He was in the government of Moi in its dying throes, in Kibaki's government and now wants to bully the nation into appointing him PM. As it is, there's no space for a PM in the current constitution, and someone asked earlier.. if they have half the ministries, who do those ministers report to? He's been treacherous in his quest for power in the past, so why should we trust him now, especially when flanked by that warlord who must not be named?
But seriously, does Kenya really need 34 ministries??

THe will of the people of keny
written by Jane , February 21, 2008

I am really confused, when ODM and western powers refer to the 'people of Kenya' what do they mean? Do voters from central Kenya and anyone else qualify to be Kenyans. Because from all the hot air being blown around, they don't seem to be.

re:
written by Shaolin , February 21, 2008

What losses, Mwangaza? You seem to be listening too much to the now tired line of "there will be no business as usual". We are not only a sovereign nation, Mwangaza, but also a self sufficient economy-at least as far as paying our own bills is concerned. I agree we may need them as business partners, but wait a minute. Do you know how much business the US and Britain are doing with a dictatorship like North Korea? Their threats, my friend are nothing but hot air. China is today led by the world's fourth worst dictator and it is the second biggest trading partner of the US after Canada. The US owes them hundreds of billions of dollars. If they can do business with these dictatorships, if they can borrow money from these governments (obviously you don't borrow from someone you don't recognize), what gives you the idea that they have the moral authority to even suggest the kind of government that suits us?

To back you on this Vikii, if China was to cash their Federal bonds, the US would go down overnight. and that's the picture. And no that's not a country that should be holding moral lessons for us. The countries must be preserved at all costs. We cannot allow for the constitution to be trampled on because basically what we are saying is that anybody with a grievance can disregard it at all times when it doesn't say what they want to hear. And really why would ODM choose to use the law courts in some cases and not take his grievances on the so called 'stolen cow'. Their greed is out in the open and its a quite wearing to keep hearing that line because its coming out clearly that no votes were stolen and that this is a pure enactment of hijacking and forcing their will on Kenyans which was schemed by the best intellectuals . They have killed, they have maimed, they have impoverished and that still will not stop them. Like their consciences are seared as they go threatening again. They have no feelings for the affected people but see them rather as pawns to their long planned ambitions. I say let's go to the polls!! They have squandered their future in politics and just as well.

re: anonymous
written by a guest , February 21, 2008

No one in Kenya is opposed to weakening the presidency. I would not normally be against power sharing, in fact I am all for it. Kibaki has already shown he is not averse to the idea, he has appointed Kalonzo who attacked him the whole of last year as Vice President has he not?
He has left 17 Cabinet slots for the ODM, no? .

Wainaina, you and I know that the only reason why Kibaki appointed Kalonzo is to gain numbers in parliament by acquiring ODM-Ks pathetic 14 seats. What with his meagre 44seats compaired to ODMs 99? Kibaki is yet to declare having left the 17 cabinet slots for ODM.

ODM is totally confused
written by kobangoshe , February 21, 2008

In 1997, Raila lost the election for presidency coming a distant third after Kibaki and of course Moi the victor, through rigging. Raila rushed to the American Envoy to ask of Yankees intervention. Prudence Bushnell who was in office then, refused and implored the losers to seek re-dress in the courts. Kibaki filed a petition. It was thrown out by courts on a technicality that he did not serve the 2nd respondent (Moi) in person as required by law.

2002, whatever, whatever there were no issues. Uhuru conceded and accepted the voters' decision. He served leader of opposition and did a superb job.

2007, a flawed election both in voting as well as in tallying. The net effect, Kibaki is declared victor by over 200 grand difference. The runners-up, is Raila. Not satisfied he cries out he has been rigged. He had speculated the outcome, and had indicated he will reject the results if he loses unfairly and because he say he was rigged, so he rejects the results. Soon there are skirmishes in anger, and sooner than later there was ethnic cleansing in Rift Valley.

So what will make it different in 2012 election if the loser refuses to accept the election? What will the Prime Minister do if he is rigged in, and the rival takes protests on the roads, kills and destroys property? Would Raila expect anything different?

re: ODM is totally confused -
written by a guest , February 21, 2008

Be warned. Not here, Eds.

Long Term Solutions
written by Aggey , February 21, 2008

I concur with Mr. Vikii that what Kenyans should be striving to achieve is to get the President answerable to the people of through an institution like parliament.

The creation of the post of PM with 50/50 power sharing with the President sounds unnervingly similar to a grand coalition(given the current situation). The arrangement could work, however our leaders are yet to develop a democratic culture, in which the will of power-sharing and consensus decisions are highly valued. A quick look at past and present politics tells you that ours is a "winner takes all" culture.
Therefore unless political attitudes, positions and mind sets change for the better, the creation of a PM cannot be a solution for a long period.
The deliberations of the Annan led mediation talks set a precedent and it's extremely important that the decisions made during the mediation process not be short term, if the post of PM were to be created solely to appease the opposition would be wrong and extremely dangerous. Kenyans require solutions that will enable them to look into the far future with certainty.

re: THe will of the people of
written by a guest , February 21, 2008

I am really confused, when ODM and western powers refer to the 'people of Kenya' what do they mean? Do voters from central Kenya and anyone else qualify to be Kenyans. Because from all the hot air being blown around, they don't seem to be.

No need for you to get confused. It is because the whole world knows that Kibaki rigged the elections. Raila is the true and actual winner hence he has the majority votes. People from central Kenya are Kenyans dear, but ODM and the West are only referring to the wishes of the majority of Kenyans which are represented by the 99 MPs seats garnered by ODM compared to the 44 PNU seats. ODM numbers are still high with the rest of PNU affiliate parties put together.

Please advance an argument. Feel free to speak your mind but don't troll or heckle and boo. Eds.

...
written by a guest , February 21, 2008

What do you do when diplomacy fails? I have posed this question before and will appreciate PNU supportes to sincerely give an answer.

If PNU and ODM's roles were reversed today, will we still call for a powerful president?

Are we really at home with our current constitution that we would want any deal struck in line with it?

Do we want to build Kenya that is favourable to us only today and not tommorow

?

We are not really at home with the constitution but nowhere in the world have laws been suspended because its citizenry were not comfortable with. Even if Raila won we would have bestowed him with all the powers that comes with presidency