Re: homo africanus?
written by Mwende , July 16, 2007

There absolutely needs to be a shift in the mindset of women in public office.To deny that there is a negative view of women in politics especially in African countries is ignorant.

...
written by aeichener , July 16, 2007

One might wish to specify the answer to Grace's question.

1. What I think about having more women appointed to public offices?

Am all in favour of it, and would also affirm and support a temporary need for affirmative action. Even though Leso Munala makes a rather strong statement against affirmative action:
"if the nation as a whole embraces the notion that character, relevant training and experience rather than gender should be the driving force when considering who to elect as public officials to serve the country."

2. What I think about women who already are in public office?

As to those in Kenya, not very much; I have met more than a due share of incompetents, buffoons and nincompoops among them. They are not better than the Kenyan men in public office, alas. Wish they were, but reality is what it is.

Alexander

Response to Mwende
written by aeichener , July 16, 2007

There absolutely needs to be a shift in the mindset of women in public office.

I agree. They really have to change their mindset. See our experiences with FIDA, with the Kenyan embassy in Germany, with the Investment Authority, with the Export Promotion Council, with NTZDC... a litany of sorrows. But such incompetence is not gender related; not only women have to change their mindset. Office holders in general have to understand what "service" means; "servitude" they have already sucked in.

Alexander

Women and Public office
written by Grace M. , July 16, 2007

These are the mindsets that we are trying to change. I am just curious what Alexander thinks of women in public office given his reply.

RE:
written by Grace M. , July 16, 2007

I see the you deleted your last comment. Not willing to stand by your initial remarks?

The more , the merrier
written by J.kinuthia , July 16, 2007

Interesting article and view points.I have to agree with emmo opoti on the example that the male Kenyan public servants have set before us. I would imagine that it would be hard for women coming into office to try and change what their male collegues that preceded them functioned. If there were 60 female MPs like was suggested, they would easily rally together and make some needed change.

...
written by aeichener , July 16, 2007

Emmo:
From the context, you apparently mean: "not any less likely". Please correct it.

A.

...
written by Hon , July 17, 2007

The current crop of women politicians
/leaders have outlived their importance, assuming they were ever important.

I recall that one Dr. Julia Ojiambo was a public servant of One Samia South in the 70's, and sat by as the region lost its source of income-The death of cotton and ginneries.

She delivered nothing to the people.

I recall that one time we had a number of women in govt who were very powerful, the Agnes Ndetei/Zipporah Kittony/Nyiva era.
Wangari Maathai's Greenbelt is a Nyeri affair and a legacy to her children. The later idea is more acceptable.
It has not been marketed anywhere else.

Their only e3xcellent show of power, demanding that they not be checked like everyone else at JKIA, when boarding planes, even rudely talking to the employees. I had never seen them until I inquired who the hell raisers were!

All are crippled.

A new brand of women leaders must arise. Maybe even urself ms Author; Who said a doctorate translates to good leadership.
Many of them are lacking in social intelligence!

missing the point as usual
written by Nekessa , July 17, 2007

the problem with leader in Kenya, both male and female, is the same-- they are all one clique, one class of Kenyan elite completely out of touch with the Mwananchi.

The problem of lack of support and recognition of female leaders is not peculiar to Kenya-- one only needs to look at the US election, and see the gender attacks on Hillary (not my candidate of choice, but it has nothing to do with her gender) See there is a lot of things that I don't like about her. But I also observe with clarity an attack on her femininity or lackof.

See for me a true leader, is a person of the people. And that of a Kenyan leader, the expectations are even higher-- they must meet the very basic needs of their constituents-- water, food and shelter. One who stands for the simple rights of their constituents-- children, women and men. When a young girl, even with free education, misses school, because of her monthly menses, when young children are kept home from school so that they can be farm laborers or when husbands, the bread winners, take to the bottle in frustration, we need to assess our priorities.

Ps-- what is social intelligence?

Service, not liidaahsheep
written by aeichener , July 17, 2007

And that of a Kenyan leader, the expectations are even higher

Yet the expectations of a Kenyan "leader", Nekessa, are very simple. Your very first paragraph (which I have not quoted, so save space) addressed this already indirectly.

One must simply expect her (or him) to serve. Period. All said.

A.

re:Hon
written by j.Kinuthia , July 17, 2007

Education does not translate into good leadership.Unfortunately,it is a standard by which we judge a lot of our leaders by.Without knowing their character, we look for people that will represent us well.We do not know what the women that you mentioned went through in public office. I can also make a list five times as long of men in public office that have done absolutely nothing of value. The point here is that both men and women need a fair chance .

re: mindset comment
written by Mwende , July 17, 2007

I meant to say that there needs to be a shift in the mindset of women being in Public office. To respond to the " but such incompetence is not gender related" comment , I think that is the point that Leso is trying to make in this article.Neither competence or incompetence is gender related. So why should we care who is in office as long as they are doing a great job?

re: re: mindset comment
written by aeichener , July 17, 2007

So why should we care who is in office as long as they are doing a great job?

Yes, we should care in my opinion. We do first of all need better public servants of any gender (not public buffoons), but we also need more women in politics and civil service and business.

It does not appear licit to say: "but the men are already doing their job, so we don't want any women in office(s)".

Alexander

...
written by Hon , July 18, 2007

I quote the author's last sentense of her first paragraph:

"The African culture is not comfortable with women in leadership positions regardless of how educated they may be"

I support the idea of women getting involved at higher levels, for after all
they bear a huge percentage of the country's problems, however, academic achievement has very little to do with it!

And she has gone on to mention Drs. Mathai and Julia. Now I will be told it was sarcasm. Baloney!

As of leaders meeting constituents needs as exemplified by Nekeassa, it is mere passionate talk sans reason.

Men turn to the bottle in frustration, what should women turn to?

passionate talk?
written by Nekessa , July 18, 2007

Hon, you still haven't told me what social intelligence is.

Anyway,

As of leaders meeting constituents needs as exemplified by Nekessa, it is mere passionate talk sans reason.

-- What's passionate talk? mine? or politicians promising to serve? If I am just being passionate, then tell me why do we elect them to office?

re:Hon
written by Kama , July 18, 2007

So I have just read the article and Like Nekessa, I think you are missing the point.Education, I agreee has very little to do with success in public office but this is how we judge competence among other things. I think the authour was trying to show that women are just as competent as men and they should not have to fight as the former president suggested for positions in public office.Maybe the authour could speak up and defend her opinion but I understood the point she was trying to pass across.

...
written by Kama , July 18, 2007

So how do you suggest we go about getting these women in public office?

...
written by G.Njuhi , July 18, 2007

I would say the same for the current crop of male politicians. Why are women in public office held to higher standardS?No one mentions the difficulty that they may have faced in their various line of work that may have contributed to their so called "failure".What do you mean by social intelligence Hon?

...
written by Marangu , July 18, 2007

Lovely discussion.
Hon:
Your views are insulting to women anywhere. I am sure you are not being sacarstic, you are either terribly misinformed or simply preoccupied with some gender superiority complex. The world turned that page a while back, so please move on.
I am not sure I understand why Kenya women' potential should be gauged by the perfomance of those that preceded them. There should be equitable distribution of public service positions, even political positions. Like emmo, I believe if we have to legislate to archieve that, then that is the way to go.

the more, the merrier
written by emmo opoti , July 18, 2007

I would say legislation is the only way to beat prejudice. By looking at the poor record of male Kenyan public servants, it is predictable that the female variety will not do much better if given only a dozen or so opportunities every decade. Now if we had 60 female MPs.

The only problem as we have seen far too often, is that Kenyan female MPs are not any less likely to be oppressive and irresponsible than their male counterparts.

Mr.Hon
written by Mumo , July 19, 2007

I have to agree with Marangu on this one. Some of the discussion you have put forth confirm the mindset that the author talked about in her article.You may not have liked the examples of women she used in the piece but that does not translate into women in public office.I agree with the author that policies have to be created to afford qualified women the opportunity to serve in public office.

Please inform me
written by Hon , July 20, 2007

Marangu:
What decides that a woman is qualified to lead?
Criteria please?

Nooo, of course not. New leadership can not be predicted using the previous performance or lack of it....although, Kenya's case can be unique.I like to think of Gabriel Gebarinos quote -The real performance comparison ought to be you against yourself, what you have done and what you are capable of doing. Nobody else. (They must first note that.)

In Kenya, it is kinda, lets just cut the rot by a small percentage, now that is great, we are performing! If in your youth, with all the passion, u did nothing, what will make a difference 20 years later, when u are slaggish and more set in your ways(Julia here).


Secondly, the current women clamoring for leadership, like their male counterparts are all recycled. Nimeskia Julia tangu niwe mtoto, or maybe I know her alittle more. Same Kirende with the Sally Kosgeis. In reality, the only shift has been in fortune, period.
I'd love to see a leader who truly knows the burdens of a kenyan woman, not by reading from reading daily Nation. The current ones sound to me like they are bored at home, nothing active in their lives, why not add a drop of heckling kenyan style.

I think they are like the young Kenyans who go abroad (more America), fail to achieve their goals or get in trouble, then fly back home to be rapstars, gangstas, wankstas...just because they watched enough BET.

Ms. Nekessa. Here we go.
Social Intelligence- the aptitude that makes people smart when dealing with others.

Consider Alex (fictional character) who graduated with top honors from his law class, and ended up starting the only patent law firm in Kenya. No surprise, he is brilliant, so it is expected.
The real surprise is in Mark (ana fictional xter)
, the class average who was socially adept. At 40, he had his own company...bla...bla.

Today, science is discovering brain systems that make us smart in ways that have little or nothing to do with nthetraditional IQ. As a result, definition of intelligence is frantically being revised.

Ingredients of social intelligence:

Emotional inteligence- (the brain circuitry responsible for turning our passions into positive actions).
Empathy and Social skills.

There are inborn neurological links that give one the ability to read a situation, sense others' intentions & feelings and produce sound decisions.
Like common sense, it is not locally available in the classroom.

Courtesy of Dr. T. TOLLERUD. (NIU)
[/i



By the way, most employers/businesses are considering it much more today.

...
written by Marangu , July 20, 2007

Hon:
Initially you seemed to have an issue with the current crop of Kenyan women in leadership, and you suggested that they lack social intelligence to lead. Now the issue I have and the other people (Nekessa) who have querried your views is, if men possess this particular gift, how come we are where we are in Kenya today.And Why does it bother you that Julia has been around for so long, what about Emilio, Kamotho, Ntimama, Ngala, Karume, Nyachae, Awori ad infinitum, oh, I forget, these have the emotional, social and all the other interminable forms of intelligence you describe.
And who has generally been good for Kenya as a leader? do you still have the list of those involved in the Goldenberg scam? How many women in there? Seen Mathai's name, or Julia, or Gachukia? These are our heroines, they deserve your respect.
Come off it Hon, I don't get your rant.

Re:hon
written by Mumo , July 20, 2007

Points well taken Marangu, and like you I did not get Hon's rant either.

Perception
written by Hon , July 21, 2007

Marangu/Mumo

U have a right to ur own perception.

Looking at my first post, u will notice there is no mention of 'men' in there. Actually, the last portion clearly states that Kenya needs to find a new crop, even throwing the bait at the author.
Just because it is politically correct to say "women need to be given leadership posts", does not mean any skirt wearer who wants it ought to get it.

A woman like Beth Mugo, she knows a thing or two about service, would get my vote. Even Ngilu, she may lack the academic decorations, but she understands what people need better than these Gachukias am told of.

Anyone can sit in class and get degrees, just about anyone. It takes more to be a good leader. Hardly, hardly, those with PhDs cut it, the seemingly top qulification for Wangari, Julia and Gachukia! I think it is lame!


In the second, men and women both get the same grade: F. I am unable to see anywhere in my posts support for men!

The problem is, we have been wired by society to think that anyone opposing women, incapabilities irrespective, is supporting men! Not necessarily true!

Julia has been an MP before, Wangari has been too, at least Nyerians can speak well of her..Julia? Eeeerr...it blurrs, even some don't know she once vied against Moody.

Those are not my heroines...no offense, Mr. Marangu. I do not admire anything about them. My grandmother, is my heroine, I have no national one...and if it is where I reside, Jolie will be it.

Journalist
written by Njoki , July 21, 2007

We need a body that links qualified women to vacancies in the public sector...a sort of a recruitment agency that should hold databases of women CVs and match them to advertised vacancies. They should also be in a position to lobby for qualified applicants to get the jobs, preferably top jobs involving decision making. After all didn't President Kibaki talk of allocating some percentage of positions in the public service to women?

...
written by Marangu , July 21, 2007

Hon:
I am beginning to doubt your title now, it appears to me you are hitting a quick retreat on who you think is more capable, between men and women. By denying that your posts do not suggest that men are the better leaders, can you please tell us who the better leaders are then.
I have nothing against well accomplished people, men or women, and if they have PHDs and get into political office, even better, they will have better insight on what their office is about . I have a particular affinity (not just to sound politically correct) for educated women, society tends to accrue more from educated women than men, I believe if they got into leadership positions, the benefits would be immense. And Hon, I am still trying to understand what made Julie such a bad leader, we have had less than average politicians in Kenya over the years, some illiterate, some thugs and others even in the current crop of leaders under investigation for all sorts of things, and these... all men. So what did Julia do?

Njoki:
I agree, there is a case for affirming women in Kenya, equity is never achieved voluntarily, it sometimes requires governments to legislate on it, other countries have done it. I think many politicians including Kibaki have paid lip service to this concept only to turn their backs on it once in power.

Re: Perception
written by Mumo , July 21, 2007

Like I said,policies should be created to afford Qualified women the opportunity to serve in public office.Not just any educated woman with the will to run for office but rather qualified women!

Re:re:re:Mindset comment
written by Mwende , July 21, 2007

Alexander,by saying why should we care who is in office as long as they are doing a good job, I am speaking to the mindset of women in office that the author wrote about.We have already seen that the men in power are not necessarily doing the best job .That is why we should not make a big deal when a woman is running for public office as long as she does what the job entails.

Julia
written by Hon , July 22, 2007

She did nothing! Nothing is the problem. At least the thugs steal!

I believe I was not trying to say one sex was better than the other, I was more about all being bad. Most important, the authors reference to Doctoral degrees as a qualification for leadership.

Marangu, btwn the two of us, I have never thot a PhD is valuable n leadership. A good number of the holders are recluses, or misfits!

The idea that women who have achieved academically/professionally are likely to help more than men is a moot point. And U, Mr. are now springing the 'who is smarter now' kind of argument.

All men/women in govt, who have been there before have nothing to offer. All of them.

Of equity, there are new women to affirm I beleive. Ojiambo squad has to be outed. Even the Mugos are past their use dates.
I am done with old wineskins. I need new.

Njoki-Journalist
written by Hon , July 22, 2007

In another life, I would have commented 'well said'.

But I want to know, what are the qualifications, any ideas?. Academic, experience, service, diplomacy...eeh?.

There are several women orgs in kenya that have 'qualified' women as managers, who have been a bigger dissapointment to their unqualified counterparts.

I think we need new, younger women, all below 35/30. And they must have a record of service. Or we are lost.

re:Julia
written by mumo , July 22, 2007

It is evident that you have missed the point entirely.

...
written by Marangu , July 22, 2007

The essence of this debate is not to agree, interesting that you do not value Doctorates in leadership, luckily Kenya is not going the route of Kalakuta Republic, so we will continue to encaurage our kids in school to go as far as they possibly can and entertain all kinds of dreams, whether they are to do with leadership or teaching in universities as professors. Attaining a PHD is a mark of academic merit nay schizoid morbidity as you suggest.
As for new and old wineskins, what use are they when you believe in barrels.

Hon
written by R.O , July 22, 2007

Hon,
These are some of the bills that Dr. Julia brought to parliament . How can you say that the current women politicians and doing nothing? Do your research first before you argue!
a)Nutritionists and Dietitians Bill
b)The Supplies Practitioners Management Bill
c)Cotton bill

...
written by Marangu , July 23, 2007

Alex:
With respect, I am unable to respond to your provocative comment, it's not what this discussion was about... name calling.

Hon:
Your impeccable research shows at least some contribution Julia made, namely some real development issues though they may have no meaning for you. I know a good number of her male counterparts whose mouths grew fungi in perliament. The one thing I am inclined to agree with you on this whole debate is on the need for change in leadership, whether it involves women or not.

re:
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

I see the you deleted your last comment. Not willing to stand by your initial remarks?

Valid question, Grace. My initial remarks were spot on target. But I then thought - in an inappropriate fit of mildness - that the wording might have been a bit too uncharitable for young budding authors, and thus I erased my erstwhile comments (though another editor felt I should let them stay).

Anyhow, I certainly shall have enough reason to kick the author in future. Just wait when she will again wax precious generalities on The Common Negro and The African Culture As Such (as we all know, Africa is a homogenous small village of a few banana-thatched huts, clustered around a big cauldron in the middle, where the occasionally passing missionary is boiled).

Alexander

re: Re:initial remarks
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

I think that the fact the women have been for a long time the lesser gender in Africa is still a valid statement.

It is, indeed.
Too bad Leso did not make it, this statement.

but I think that she was trying to make a point.

She tried. And she failed. Badly.

Alexander

Preaching water and drinking w
written by S.W.K , July 23, 2007

Wow! I read this article some time last week and did not leave a comment, not because I agree with the author but because as mentioned above, everyone is entitled to their opinion. So it looks like the problem here seems to be generalization of the African Culture? I have read some of Alexander's work and he also has made some generalizations. For example "Kenyans love moral panics" in one of your articles. To quote the gospel (although I am far from religious): "How can you pick out a speck in someone's eye when there is a log in yours?"

Re:initial remarks
written by Grace M. , July 23, 2007

Alexander,
So do you want to deny that women are not as valued as men are in Africa? The fact that in many African communities that the male child is still preffered?The author may have generalized the African culture like you mention but I think that the fact the women have been for a long time the lesser gender in Africa is still a valid statement. You may have a problem with it but I think that she was trying to make a point.

Mr. Alexander
written by R.O , July 23, 2007

Africa is still one of the worse places to be a woman whether or not you agree with it. Seeing that you are a man,you have not gone through what some women have had to undergo. This is still the continent where teenagers are married off at a tender age with their parents consent. This is the continent where FGM is still practised. This is also a continent where Wife inheritance still takes place. This is the reason why the African Commision on Human and peoples' Rights have laid out laws that protects the right of women in Africa.

Preaching wine, not drinking i
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

So isn't an editors job also to "edit" the bad journalism before it is published?

Yes, should be, and very much so. Unfortunately, has not always been observed here.

Isn't there a way you could "impart"your writing skills on the draft before it is out in public?

Should be. Alas, another editor here thinks - and has severely time uttered this thought of his - that it be better that a weak piece be published as is, and then publicly pilloried.
I have always strenuously disagreed with him, because I have found such a scheme callous and unfair.

Now however I have decided to give him (and our esteemed readers) a taste of his vaunted medicine. If you diagree with him, fine with me.

Alexander

RE:preaching wine ,drinking it
written by S.W.K , July 23, 2007

So isn't an editors job also to "edit" the bad journalism before it is published? Or is this your way of doing so? Isn't there a way you could "impart"your writing skills on the draft before it is out in public? Or do you just find pleasure in such attacks? May I just remind you that the fact that you think it was bad journalism is YOUR opinion and not everyones!Your general statement is also your opinion.

re: Njoki-Journalist
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

There are several women orgs in kenya that have 'qualified' women as managers, who have been a bigger dissapointment to their unqualified counterparts.

I think we need new, younger women, all below 35/30. And they must have a record of service. Or we are lost.

Very true, Honey, so very very true.

[excised by Mod}

Alexander

The Black Woman\'s Burden?
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

R.O: you have understood nothing. Too bad.
To quote the magistral comedian: [excised by Mod.]

It is not - as some resident [excised by Mod] [note proper and befitting employ of the n-word here] would like to proclaim whiningly, in typical self-chastisement mode - an inferiority of the Black Race, half animal and half child (though Kipling, in his rightly famous poem, had seen and felt far far deeper than any of you).
Nope. Spare us that display of internalized racism and self-hatred, Aunt Jemimah.

It is a product of worldwide patriarchy - a system of oppression certainly not limited to Africa - joint with economic dependency, and with poverty at large. Which has very little to do with The African Culture (drinking palm wine, worshipping ancestors, and dancing around the fire, ughh?), nor with the black cranium.

*SIGH*

Preaching wine, drinking it
written by aeichener , July 23, 2007

I read this article some time last week and did not leave a comment, not because I agree with the author, but because as mentioned above, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Everyone is also entitled to a free correction when or where she blundered. That is the virtue of interactivity.

So it looks like the problem here seems to be generalization of the African Culture? I have read some of Alexanders work and he also has made some generalizations. For example "Kenyans love moral panics" in one of your articles.

Correct. My general statement was true, licit and in place. Leso's was offensive. That is all the difference. Plus, she gets a free learning experience about the difference between well-intentioned but bad journalism (hers) and good writing. Exactly what is an editor's first job, to impart such distinctions.

Alexander

...
written by S.W.K. , July 24, 2007

Talk about airing dirty laundry!Well I hope you sleep better now that you have publicly let the author know that her weak piece was published.Just an observation,most of the negative comments actually came from you so the fact that you and your fellow editor thinks that it is a weak piece is again your "esteemed" opinion.You are far from professional Alexander, although telling you won't solve anything.

Alex
written by mumo , July 24, 2007

You completely took away from the article Alex. There is criticism and then there is plain mean.For an editor, what you are doing is really low. I read the article and regardless of whether or not I agreed with the author, I thought she expressed her opinion which is what this kind of interactive forum is about. I thought it was well expressed ,but it is perhaps, because I am not a well seasoned writer and editor as yourself.I would not know any better right?

...
written by editor , July 24, 2007

This website here is meant to serve as a platform for debate and it is expected that there will be conflicts of opinion even passionate ones from time to time. However such dissent must be presented in as civilised a fashion as possible.

Editors more than anyone, are not permitted to use their work accounts to intimidate or bully writers. Such conduct is not only unprofessional, but profoundly immoral. The offending editor will not be participating with such privileges any more. The organisation extends its apologies to its readers, and all those affected by the errant editor's actions.

Alexander
written by cls , July 24, 2007

I am actually surprised that Mr. Alexander was an editor, with respect to his shocking conduct. Most, if not all, of his comments were unsubstantiated. Although he touted his editor and education status, his comments showed nothing of the professionalism related with such, other than the random throes of flowery wording.

eye on the prize
written by Kiddi , July 24, 2007

We can now get back to discussing "Kenyan women and government."

Dr.Julia
written by R.O , July 24, 2007

Thanks Kiddi.I mentioned somewhere above the 3 biils that Dr.Julia introduced to Parliament. The debate was that these women have not achieved anything in public office which is far from true.This is more than many male Ministers can show for their time in office

...
written by Timothy Wainaina , July 25, 2007

The African culture is still not comfortable with women in leadership positions regardless of how educated they may be........speaks to the mindset of many people In Africa.

The point that was irritating Alexander, and many others of us, was the use of the words 'African Culture'. No such thing exists, that we keep talking about it, especially is such oppressive contexts is not just deleterious to our common self-esteem (having coralled ourselves into a non-existent homogeneity) but also ensures that the oppression is not dealt with, the chains after all are us.

excuse my ignorance
written by hon , July 25, 2007

what happens to those bills after introduction in parliament?

The cotton bill is useless, she has to think of better things for her semi-arid hardship constituency.

am no woman of papers, just action and results.

re: Timothy \"African Culture\
written by S.W.K , July 25, 2007

So I get why you would find it offensive, but my question is...should she have used "Kenyan culture". My understanding when I read the article was that generally in Africa, pple are not comfortable with women being in public office. The opprsession of women is something that has been associated with Africa for a long time.There are documentaries that detail all that, and still happenes today .
Pple use the term "American Culture" when they are refering to something associated with Americans in general.I don't think it is a big a deal as you are making it guys.
I think the discomfort with the term stems from the fact that it is negatively associated and it is not pro Men. If the authour said the African culture is associated with generosity towards visitors for example, would you be so opposed to that? We may have different languages and ways of life across the continent but that does not change the fact that we are African. After all, we may become United States of Africa.

So instead of continuosly pointing out your irritation to the term,give examples of how the message could have been more effective, coz after all, you cannot deny that the mindset aganist women in political office still exists in Kenya, the rest of Africa and beyond.You don't have to go too far for that...just look at some of the ignorant comments posted.

Like Mumo, I think you are just stuck on the term and missing the whole point of the article. The authour mentions above that all this was in response to some speech Former President Moi gave. Maybe she should have posted the actual article she was responding to and that may have made it clear to some of you.

re: African Culture
written by Mumo , July 25, 2007

The point that was irritating Alexander, and many others of us, was the use of the words 'African Culture'.

To piggy back on S.W.K's comment. I looked up the term Culture from Wikipedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Culture (disambiguation).
Culture (Culture from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate,") generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activity significance. Different definitions of "culture" reflect different theoretical bases for understanding, or criteria for evaluating, human activity. In general, the term culture denotes the whole product of an individual, group or society of intelligent beings. It includes technology, art, science, as well as moral systems and the characteristic behaviors and habits of the selected intelligent entities. In particular, it has specific more detailed meanings in different domains of human activities.

They also have the term Culture of Africa. So this is a term that people apparently use.I think by the authour pointing out that the midset is associated with the African continent, it should be something we should continuosly discuss and debate until we are comfortable with women leading.In my opinon, you should be just as irrirated with the fact that we think that somehow women are inferior to men when it comes to public office as someone insinuated above.

Kenyan women in Office
written by kama , July 25, 2007

I came across this from another article related to the difficulty of getting Kenyan women in Public office
Article 14 (12) of the Draft Constitution
currently reads: The State shall implement
the principle that one –third of all elective
and appointive bodies shall be women.
Women have further proposed that
changes in the new Constitution to be:
The State shall implement that at least
one-third of all elective and appointive
bodies shall be women with the eventual
goal of gender parity and balance.

And I did not know that we had a Gender and Sports Minister in Kenya. If Qualified women don't have a hard time getting elected, why do we need a gender minister?

Women in office
written by Nekessa , July 25, 2007

I'll tell you what's irritating me.... We are not discussing the issue at hand. African or not, women all over the world are treated as second class citizens. Look at Hillary Clinton having to answer a question about how as a woman she will have to "deal" with world leaders who might not take her seriously because she is a woman. There is no doubt that Africa and Asia are pretty behind in recognizing women's rights, so I don't really understand why the discussion on being African is taking center stage.

Simply put, all leaders must have same expectations (hmm, I am repeating myself, I said this in a comment earlier).

re: women in office
written by Wanja , July 25, 2007

Thanks Nekessa! That is why nothing gets solved esp. In Kenya and Yes, I said it! All we do is dance around the issues, like in particular here the use of the culture term and get away from the actual issue at hand.....getting those women in office darn it!

So Timothy,Getting away from the term, how do you propose we go about this? Or are you one of those that is just stuck on the vocabulary and can't see past it?

re: excuse my igonarance
written by R.O , July 25, 2007

Hon,My understanding is that they have to be passed by voting. So if these biils were not passed, why should she introduce others, even ones that are better suited for her constituency?

I am confused! So the message in the article was getting qualified women in Office. Then the problem pple are having is that they are not doing anything worthwhile while in office,so I give 3 examples of bills introduced to parliament by the so called "useless woman leader", then now the issue is that is not enough? She cannot be held responsible for what other members of parliament do or not do.

Kenyan women in Public Office
written by Kama , July 26, 2007

I came across this in another article related.

Article 14 (12) of the Draft Constitution currently reads: The State shall implement the principle that one –third of all elective and appointive bodies shall be women. Women have further proposed that changes in the new Constitution to be:
The State shall implement that at least one-third of all elective and appointive bodies shall be women with the eventual
goal of gender parity and balance.
And I was not aware that we had a Gender and Sports Minister In Kenya.

If we were indeed comfortable with the idea of qualified women in public office,
would we need this?

Cultures in Africa
written by a guest , July 26, 2007

I looked up the term Culture from Wikipedia

Wrong step. Play again.
But read the title of this posting first. And then understand it. And only after that, presume to comment.

until we are comfortable with women leading.

People who activate their brain before posting - a minority in many others boards, but until recently a majority here - will not be comfortable with either men OR women "leading". On the contrary, they will expect men and women alike to *serve* their nation.
Except for the inborn slaves, so manifold among Kenyans: those cannot think anything else than bah, bah, liidaahsheep.

...
written by Hon , July 26, 2007

R.O

The three bills have been Julias pet ideas from the start of her political career. In a time when people are looking for other economic alternatives, she is talking about cotton that was farmed in Samia in the 60's. Does that not tell you the Dr's ideas are no longer relevant?

On the other hand, Ngilu, has just made sure women can now birth free of charge, something that should have been kitambo.
The same woman ensured women did not have to pay tax for feminine towels (though she should go on to make them free altogether). This woman, Ngilu, with her
secretarial training is what am about!

Now women do not have to wait for a wheel-barrow lift to the health center to bring forth a child.

Of the issue at hand.
Nekesa, the author has clearly, and specifically bounded her thots to Kenya, and Africa.
Lets not cloud our vision by imagining that the woes of an African woman have the same intensity as those of an American.
I beleive Ms. Leso intended for an African context.
Please, restrict your ideas and specifics to that.

More women in office
written by aeichener , July 26, 2007

the actual issue at hand.....getting those women in office darn it!

You have to ask the question a bit more specifically to see the difficulty:

1. How to get more women into offices?

2. *Which* women to get info offices?


1. As to the HOW, the term "affirmative action" has been used already, above. It is, admitted, a very broad brush. In practical application, this may mean a quota system. It may mean that so-and-so-many percent of newly employed public servants must be women. Or it may mean that so-and-so-many nominated MPs must be female (this idea may bring us good and able parliamentarians who exactly because of their talent and expertise might no make it through the normal campaigns and nominations process, but also can spawn dangerous dunces like Njoki Ndung'u).

It might also mean that for a limited time of catch-up, female candidates might receive a selection bonus. This is affiermative action in the more narrow sense. In a largely and predominantly patriarchal world (which is in no way typically "African", as I and Nekessa have rightfully underlined), women are often institutionally handicapped. Their start conditions are not equal and fair, beginning already in family and primary school. A bonus may be seen as a justified counter-acting remedy to that condition.

2. When a bonus or preferential treatment is conceded - pro tempore - for female candidates, we are dealing with remediary inequality (which is constitutionally problematic) and we are also inviting the problem that women who gain office by such measures, may turn out to be not all suppressed genii, but really inferior to male candidates.
One could say, half cynically, that there are so many bad male office-holders around (and no, Leso, that again is not a part of "African Culture", this racist construct of colonialists, adopted by the self-loathing negro), that a few more bad female office holders will not make anything worse. But is this really an acceptable outcome? While I might prefer an incompetent workforce with full gender parity to an incompetent workforce comprising only one gender, this will obviously not lead us very far.

I would say that some intermediary measures might be helpful:
- One such measure would be an ordinance that any shortlist of candidates must count an equal number of female and male candidates. That at least ensures that gender bias does not exclude women early in the process (directly or indirectly; yet it does not prejudice the final selection.
- Another measure might be that for a limited time, female candidates *with equal qualification* shall receive preference before male candidates.
- There are certainly many more measures that one could think of.

Alexander

Re:More women in Office
written by Wanja , July 26, 2007

Great points Alexander, now we are getting into the solutions that I think the authour was seeking in her article.I don't really know how well the idea of preferential treatment to women with equal qualification will sit with the Kenyan public, even though it's for a limited time.But the possibility of something like that taking off is exciting.

Hon,
I too have heard of those three bills Dr.Julia introduced.Had no idea that they went back as far as when she got into politics.I have to agree, they are outdated. But then again, there are numerous male politicians in Kenya that have very outdated ideas as well.So we may need some form of accountability in public office. If a public official is not performing, perharps it is time to step down.

But like someone said above, just because she has an education and did not do a good job, we cannot go on to say that Education should not be one of the many qualifications.
We also need people in office that will understand the ecomomic impact of their policies, understand current research and effective ways to implement it, be able to meet with leaders of developed countries and not make a fool of themselves and our country.

Fellow Kenyans
written by Hon , July 27, 2007

The bone of contention should be that whoever gets voted into public office offers the services as expected, period.

The idea of sending non-performing women to office simply because their male non-performing counterparts were there is obtuse.
This is not a tit-for-tat game, we are talking people's lives here.

Pray do tell, what is the difference btwn us and the local Kenyans who cannot wait to have their man/woman in office so they can also 'eat'.

From these arguments, I gather that yo'll want women in office because men have been there.

I want a performer. If one is a woman and cannot perform, kiss my vote goodbye!

re: More women in Office
written by aeichener , July 27, 2007

Wanja and Honey, I shall try to answer to your suggestions and statements jointly in one post. Hope I'll be clear enough. Please get back to me if you feel I have not properly acknowledged any important point of your arguments.

Great points Alexander, now we are getting into the solutions that I think the authour was seeking in her article.

You will certainly have read (in today's press) the cabinet's suggestion/project of reserving 50 future MP seats (out of 300) for women exclusively, via a constitutional amendment. While the idea as such sounds laudable (see Rwanda!), I see a potential poblem in the condition that these would all be nominated MPs. How are they to be selected in a democratic and legitimacy-founding way?

My view is that these "reserved" seats should also be subject to a popular election, not just to nomination by government or parties.

I don't really know how well the idea of preferential treatment to women with equal qualification will sit with the Kenyan public, even though it's for a limited time.

Such inequality is not unproblematic from a constitutional law viewpoint - especially since the Kenyan constitutional bench of the High Court has become notorious for blocking progress and defending corruption - but I believe it is legally feasible.

The psychological acceptance is of course another thing, but one should not be too timid: other Afrcian examples already show that it is possible.

So we may need some form of accountability in public office. If a public official is not performing, perharps it is time to step down.

And Honey said the same:

I want a performer. If one is a woman and cannot perform, kiss my vote goodbye!

And I feel that everybody shall agree with you here.

But like someone said above, just because she has an education and did not do a good job, we cannot go on to say that Education should not be one of the many qualifications.

I beg to differ. Education is highly valued in many countries, and notably so in East Africa (compare Uganda, Malawi), but the deeply counterproductive and noxious exaggeration of vain empty credentialism and education for mere education's sake ("non vitae, sed scholae discimus!" is indeed something particularly Kenyan. I have seen far too many uneducated Kenyan dunces (of either gender!) with Harvard titles and the like. Let's look at quality and performance, not at degrees and titles.

We also need people in office that will understand the ecomomic impact of their policies, understand current research and effective ways to implement it, be able to meet with leaders of developed countries and not make a fool of themselves and our country.

Indeed so. It is a shame that a brilliant mind like Gem Argwings-Kodhek remains a humble researcher, while the agriculture docket is headed by Kipruto Kirwa.

As to foolishness, you indeed touch an oozing wound. There are many bad politicians, self-serving and corrupt, in many parts of the world. That is no part merely of an "African culture", as Leso Munala would maintain.

But the kind of outright blatant foolishness that some Kenyan politicians display (e.g. Mwakwere the former National Clown, or Murungaru) is stunning and saddening. A Kenyatta, Moi, Njonjo were at least taken serious, for all their vices. But those others? A sheer travesty, just like the "Armenian brothers".

Alexander