It was him!!
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 23, 2008

Actually, and this really is quite sad. the Ivory Coast statement was made by none other than Mhe. Raila Odinga, the inciter of Kenyans and disrupter of the public peace, and of general commerce.

...
written by politicalscientist , January 23, 2008

Well then shame on him! And shame on him 100 times! And to the other extreme, shame on Alfred Mutua and Martha Karua for going on television ans saying that there was nothing wrong in Kenya....as I've said somewhere else on these pages, Kenya needs a new breed of politicians.

not so simple
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 23, 2008

You forget that these people are playing what are clearly different roles. The government does have a duty to show, even pretend that all is well in Kenya. The opposition on the other hand, has a duty to show up the government.

So when you hear Alfred Mutua saying everything is alright, just a few skirmishes, he is looking to ameliorate the effect of the violence on Kenya's longer term international image. Standard PR practice.

re: It was him!!
written by Wuod Aketch , January 23, 2008

Actually, and this really is quite sad. the Ivory Coast statement was made by none other than Mhe. Raila Odinga, the inciter of Kenyans and disrupter of the public peace, and of general commerce.

Raila is just warning Kibaki on what might happen if the situation becomes locked. A man who warns that you might get burnt if you play with fire is not inciting you to light one. If Kibaki does not agree to negotiation, Kenya will surely become like Ivory Coast (IC) and not even Raila will be able to stop it. Do you know what happened in IC? The country was split into two by warring factions (Pro-government in the South and the opposition in the North). In fact Kenya's case may be worser. But Raila is not a kind that will battle the opression from the bush - he will wrestle the Mount Kenya mafia with all the legal means in broad daylight, under the view of all the world media cameras and with the help of the down trodden people of Kenya.

...
written by politicalscientist , January 23, 2008

Kamale T I get what you're saying. I spent 2.5 months working and travelling in West Africa and believe you me for the media to draw parallels between Kenya and Cote D'Ivoire is deplorable. Why can't they focus on the real culprits, our so called Leaders on both sides of the political divide?

...
written by Kamale , January 24, 2008

Wuod,

Then you completely missed what I was writing about. Raila may wish for Kenya to become Ivory Coast if he does not become president or Mutua may convince the world nothing is wrong in Kenya. My view and belief from the attitude of Kenyans is that they DO NOT intend to lose their country and will stand with each other. Obviously there is the minority who think that destroying their country will give them any satisfaction!

Kisumu
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 24, 2008

Kamale,
Another factor that no one mentions with regard to Kisumu is the fact that the business class there thinks the government has been too soft on the protesters. If you look at videos from the first three days of the violence (when the Kenya Police Service did not shoot) you will notice that there were many policemen, armed ones about but the crowds were simply overwhelming. People are wondering why the forces were especially strident in the lakeside city, but just look at the sheer numbers that poured out onto the street, look at the destructive power of the Kisumu mob, something unseen anywhere else in the country.
Hope we can draw a line under that, there simply was no other way the government could have reacted. The survival of Kisumu is a national security issue, one that will long long outlive Odingaism. There are quite clearly a large bunch of goons about who want to destroy Kenya, raze her to the ground, and for these the police must have no mercy. Look at these innocents in Kisumu threatening to burn their school and kill their principal unless he closes it down.

--------------
Now, Mr Kamale, for those of us who want to treasure this flower, we must keep campaigning at home and abroad for the unity and prosperity of our country.

One Kenya, Forever.

re: It was him!!
written by InSidious , January 24, 2008

Actually, and this really is quite sad. the Ivory Coast statement was made by none other than Mhe. Raila Odinga, the inciter of Kenyans and disrupter of the public peace, and of general commerce.

Now there; are you motivated by a rational objection or just running your mouth as presented with the opportunity? Any loss of life is deplorable, even one.

PS: Kibaki's undoing triggered the violence. The rest, it seems is a free for all brawl!

Insidious, PS
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 24, 2008

SO we are then denying any agency on Raila's part. He is just a child who does not cause events, they just happen about him, right?

Why is it I have never seen any one of you ODM people make even a remotely reasonable argument? Does Raila not permit it? Are you completely disregarding Raila Odinga's history of violence from the past 26 years?

And to PS,
Yes, Raila boasts about his involvement in the coup, for those weak-minded enough to ask why the government does not just lock up Raila if he was guilty of treason, well these are the effects of democracy Kenyan-style, anyone with a big enough mob or money behind him also has impunity. Remember Reuben Ndolo, Kamlesh Pattni, Musalia Mudavadi, William Ruto, Raila Odinga, Fred Gumo, Simeon Nyachae, Otieno Kajwang, Richard Kwach, Sally Kosgei, Ephraim Maina even international suspects like Zakayo Cheruiyot (?).

Just one question, how come ODM types are immune to reason?

indulgence
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 24, 2008

I beg the indulgence of the editors. Kamale's article assumes that all Kenyan regions and communities have the same interests, that we are all affected for example by the economic downturn, or that people base their actions on reason, that our enemies and those wishing us ill are not Kenyan.

Well, you could not be further from the truth, as the likes of Aketch and Isindu keep showing us here, there are Kenyan people who are very eager that this country is burned to the ground, that as many of the evil Kikuyus as possible are killed, or chased back to their ancestral lands. These are the same vermin that insist on having boycotts of certain companies, the same vermin that want sanctions slapped on their own people.

You see the Messiah and his acolytes have never been too good at joining the dots, seeing beyond Pinocchio's admittedly long nose. The ODM is intent on strangling the baby to death.

By the way,
What informs the distinct inferiority complex by some of these people? I mean I understand it coming from the lower classes, but from a middle class professional? Are there barriers to business ownership by non-Kikuyus and non-Kisiis west of Nakuru?

blindly anonymous
written by Vitalis Oyudo , January 24, 2008

Hmmm, and Wainaina is proved right. I suppose there is something to be said for the assertion that Kibaki is the candidate of the educated, the investing, the business-running, the property-owning, the Kenya-treasuring class. This might explain the reactions seen in Kamale's article, reactions which seem to me from the earliest days of the violence to have stayed constant. From the mamas with loans from Equity or Family, from the mama mbogas with only Ksh 5,000 in stock, the mamas involved in merry-go-rounds and chamas with their neighbours, all those who were denied their vote by Raila's hooligans lined up in the estates stealing, grabbing and buying their votes (see Lang'ata, Nyanza and the Rift Valley (or even the Speaker election), to the small traders in Kisumu's Kibuye market and Nairobi's Toi market, across tribal lines, the spirit of one Kenya united and indefatigable has been evident.

We will not be beaten, you go on bleed to death on your keyboards, but this is also our country. There is absolutely nothing in Kibaki that brought about the annihilation of Kisumu but the most atavistic even primeval urge by male youth to totally dominate society. This has always been what Raila Odinga has stood for, mayhem and destruction and those that worship at his temple persist. The efforts of these brigands are supplemented by a loyal band of armchair generals, who want to paralyse Kenyan business, who want to boycott the companies that employ the poor, put food on tables and give them access to the credit and the dignity that frees them from the chains of the tyrant in the middle.
Timothy,
That is the reason for the chip on their shoulder, a motley crew of untalented nobodies who are guaranteed to make a pretty dollar from the suffering as they busy themselves writing proposals for funding for their multiple NGOs. As is self-evident, these are people who seriously believe that Kenya has got worse under Kibaki, that Kibaki is a dictator.

ukweli wa mambo
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 24, 2008

First, you are suggesting that multi-party-ism was worth fighting for, I do not think it was. There is such an emotional discourse in Kenyan politics that nonsense passes for reason. May I point out that there is no multi-party-ism in Vietnam or in China.

Please do not say the Kenyan poor, as Oyudo postulates, many of those mama mbogas have very different priorities and ambitions from those of the idling, stone-throwing vijanas rampaging about.
Truth,
Do you have any property? Is there anything you stand to lose should Kenya go up in flames or are you good and ready to run-off as a refugee with your ipod, your 4WD and your trendy clothes? You see this is I think the gist of Kamale's article, there are many of us who have even an aggressive desire to see Kenya triumphant, and as Oyudo and Wanyama and Kamale say, we will not be beaten.

One Kenya, Forever.

One Kenya

Kenya is not united
written by Truth Be Told , January 24, 2008

We have been living a lie for 45 years .

The poor are the ones who fought for independence and the collaborators got all the Land.

Point to Ponder

Why do people who have lived in rift valley for say 20 years still not regarded as indigenous yet there were born there

Fact:Why do most African Kenyans not regard the Kenyan Asians as Kenyans

This unity of kenyans is a lie perpetrated by the middle class.

Fact:How many of us have ever been to Mathare or even Kibera in times of peace

Is starving in Mathare in times of peace good because you do do not disturb the normalcy of the middle class Kenya

Fact: The Kenya Population is not a normal distribution.

To remind ourselves in a distribution the two extremes in this case the poor and the rich are a minority and the middle class are the majority.

In such a case if there is problem in the country it is easier to hang to together

Question:

What hold us together in Kenya.is it our common poverty.

Questions:

Are there ideals worth dying for Or is peace at all costs .If ANC cherished ''peace'' South Africa still be under the yoke of Apartheid.

Let us remember Mandela speech at the trial in Rivonia. Democracy is an ideal to fight for or even die for

Can somebody please define peace for me

Peace is when the Children in Kibera and Mathare do not go hungry even in times of normalcy

...
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 24, 2008

Why do you have to write one line at at time, paragraphs have been invented you know? It makes it so difficult to read!!

Now, please explain to me how Kenyans have been marginalised, or how others have been benefited? Have the Kikuyu children in Central Province been given food by Kibaki, or the ones in Kibera?

Kikuyus & Kibaki
written by Truth Be Told , January 24, 2008

Hey Tim

I have never mentioned tribes or even Kibaki.I do notice that most of the houses being burnt are mud houses like the ones in other parts of Kenya(Kibera and Mathare included)

We need to put this into perspective.
Some of the poverty in central Kenya in places like Kieni and even Kabete the supposedly richest constituency in the country is heartbreaking

This ''peace'' business is to hood wink people from looking at their problems and seek justice from their rulers.Notice the term ''rulers''.For Kenyans too achieve true and lasting peace we have to ask ourselves very honest questions like how come Taita Taveta district is owned by Two families

Secondly we have to ask our selves if the acquisition of land in the rift valley was fair given that the origainal inhabitants had not embraced a monetary economy.This what is fueling the violence in the rift valley.

Marginalisation is between the rich and the pooor and is made worse by the skewed distribution of resources by the government.

Do not think some Kenyans are poor because they are lazy.

What happens is that if i steal from Kenya through say goldbenberg or anglo leasing i use my tribe to protect myself.

I brand those people from my tribe who ask for answers as traitors.

My arguement is that what these stolen elections have revealed is that Kenya is a lie .

Let me ask you and others if a foreigner was attacking Kenya would you defend it the same way you defend you tribes

Kenya is artificial

Kenya is artificial, a lie
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Truth. I like your posts, but this is your most contentious one yet. What should we do since Kenya is a lie? I agree with all your observations here, but then what? Also, Tim here reminds that paragraphs are easier on the eye and dont need to scroll even. Sawa?

re: Kenya is artificial, a lie
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

Truth. I like your posts, but this is your most contentious one yet. What should we do since Kenya is a lie? I agree with all your observations here, but then what? Also, Tim here reminds that paragraphs are easier on the eye and dont need to scroll even. Sawa?

we should form a new country by mutual agreement.Those who want to remain should remain those who want to join Uganda or Tanzania should do so

Kenya artificial, a lie
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Truth. Youve confirmed what I was fearing. But that's ok. Wait, No, thats not OK. Instead of people choosing to go to Ug, TZ, DRC, where you cant even be sure people will want us rotten apples, why not just rework the whole of africa? The European-style nation state is evidently not working and you've pointed that out very nicely.

About 5 years ago, I remember sitting and listening to one prof who suggested that Africa should reconfigure itself along ethno-linguistic groups. For example, the luo nilotic types of Ken, Ug, Tz, Sudan etc can form one group. And maybe they can join the plain nilotic types since they sikizana sana. The cushitic types. The bantus of eastern and southern africa, etc...That was provocative. Might this work better for you Truth? I'm just afraid that Ug and Tz wont welcome us with open arms, so we need to persuade them that we're seeking a greater good, even for them.

ps: i saw somewhere that you're planning to leave the post. Not good.

kenya artificial, a lie
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

I forgot to consider what would happen to my types, mixed bantu-nilotic ethnolinguistic..dual citizenship, i hope.

...
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

Yes we might need to deconstruct the Kenyan state and/or many of the african Nation states.

Leaving the Kenyan story a side if you look at Sudan north and south they are 2 distinct states.They tried to be together by force but it failed so the will hang apart shortly

For the purpose of arguement it is my view that it is a fallacy and legalistic to believe that you can own land anywhere in Kenya just because it is in the constitution.

A constitution is supposed to be an agreement between the people of a nation.I believe it is Mutahi Ngunyi who said that the preamble of the Kenya constitution should read we the tribes of Kenya having agreed...

Were the people of Rift Valley consulted before the settlement were done.

This is the puzzle of the artificial nation state in Africa today

What do you think mkosa

PS: The reasons i am considering leaving are in my recent posts what is your comment on them

...
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Truth. I agree with you on these, all valid points. Some of those legalistic solutions have no basis re the reality on the ground. There are some places where an individual cannot even buy land. Also, there are many places where land, in spite of individual title deeds, are still very much under collective and cultural constraints. There are many things going on, I think and to keep harping that an individual can settle wherever they wish is a vision that is yet to be borne out empirically. See, am not making a judgement on anything/anyone just pointing out some inconsistencies.

I believe that we need to look forwards, even as we take history into serious account. There is no point in fukuaring the past if we dont have a strategy and options of what to do with what we find. We are in a time of deep crisis and this can help us be creative in re-crafting our constitution and other institutions. However, without openness, honesty and commitment to Kenyans, pursuing this can cause even more problems.

ps: the editors rule, you know, but they're not entirely unreasonable. re-think this.

(Not entirely. ;-) Ed.)

pps: its mkosakabila

may I interrupt your love-in
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 25, 2008

The Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land, and everyone who thinks they have a right to deny other Kenyans their rights as per that law, and especially an entire community based purely on their ethnicity is as you have put it threatening the survival of the country, is challenging the greater will and is committing treason.

I suppose we are only making these idiotic statements because Raila has instructed that the Kikuyu are adui, but let's think clearly the ramifications of what we are saying.

First of all, disabuse yourselves of the myth that this land came to these people through Kenyatta or the colonial government. Many of these Kikuyu families have lived here since the late 19th Century. Even the later ones have not just bought the land, they have bought it with the blessings of the local communities often paying a lot of money over many years for the land.

There is a lot of land that has been gained by theft, but it is unlikely to have been taken by these people, more likely by the Rift Valley barons themselves. If this dispute was really about land, why is no one invading Kibaki's Naro Moru farm, why is no one invading farms like the Delamere's, or Ol Pejeta, or Kuki Gullman's or William Ntimama's, or Sally Kosgei's? Why is no one looking to take land back from Musa Sirma, or from Henry Kosgei, or Sammy Mwaita or Zakayo Cheruiyot? Why just attack the poor Kikuyus and Kisiis?

Eldoret, Laikipia, Uasin Gishu, Naivasha and so on. People those are all Maa names. So if you want to be giving the land back to the people it belongs to then why not give it to the Maasai? And why stop there, are you fools ready to exit your Nairobi homes for their indigenous owners?

Moment of Truth
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

That's the best thing I've heard in a while. Bring this thing back to the people. Yes, civil society should organize and move forward as Raila,Kibaki and Co. play their mediation games. But I'd suggest to keep the agenda pretty open i.e. not just start by saying that we want to discuss whether to live together.

re: may I interrupt your love-
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

The Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land, and everyone who thinks they have a right to deny other Kenyans their rights as per that law, and especially an entire community based purely on their ethnicity is as you have put it threatening the survival of the country, is challenging the greater will and is committing treason.

This constition is a legalistic document. It was never subjected to a referendum. Secondly it has been mutilated so much and all the power transfered to the presidency.

The sovereignity of the state rests with the people. The people are now being called upon to decide their destiny
(...)
What we are saying is it is time for Kenyans to decide if the want to be Kenyans.

re:
written by Truth be Told , January 25, 2008

I am beginning to fear to express some views as they may be construed as attacks.

(Fine. You have understood. Thus desist from detouring into such attacks, that is the gist of our editing. You can do fine if you only want, you have shown it before. Ed.)

This is a critical moment in the history of Kenya. We need to decide if we want to leave together.

(Might it not be viable to live together instead of opting to leave for Canaan? Ed.)

I have a crazy idea: what if we the people (civil society, religious leaders, business leaders) leaving the politicians aside called a forum to discuss the way forward.

Do you think it would work.
Before the 1997 elections there was a movement of "no reform - no elections" led by civil society. The politicians panicked and came up with IPPG. Maybe we need to leave them out and forge our own destiny.

re: Land laws and injustices
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

Also, there are many places where land, in spite of individual title deeds, are still very much under collective and cultural constraints.

I would say that this is not a bad thing at all (lest your above concessive conjunction "in spite of" be misunderstood), and that the inconsiderate indivdualization of "property" rights (in sense of Roman dominium), beginning with the nefarious Crown Lands Ordinance, is at the root of many Kenyan evils, but then who am I to tell you about this? That would be as importing elephants to Kenya... :-)

Smiley aisde, the best enchiridion of Kenyan land law problems is probably a text by Godana Doyo that I once found in the Web, one of the most sovereign, brilliant and enchanting (dare I say) pieces of scholarship I have ever seen flow from the usually warped and crooked quill of a Kenyan jurist. The topic could be worthy of an article here, don't you think so?

Alexander
(in iure utroque doctus...)

Back to the love-in
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

Now that a heckler from the peanut gallery has oafishly interrupted our tenderly commencing, courtly love-in ;-), we feel forced to either silence him, to plug our ears, or to resort to an exchange of arguments instead of peace, love and unity. Tsk tsk. I suggest options one and two combined.

Stephen: I agree that there are some criminals who have to be shot on sight now (not necessarily the poor emotion-crazed youngster who taunts and monkey-dances before police while his friends violently hurl the stones, but very certainly the ogres manning the many road blocks, e.g. in North Rift Valley. One machine-gun ammo belt, or a shot from a tank round loaded with canister shot will ably take care of such a road block and its blood-baying hyenas).

My apologies-still learning
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

If theres anyone rightfully aggrieved, its the Maasai. And yes, if they staked a claim, we would all have to listen. Just because something is doesnt mean it is right or that it should continue being so. Am serious about this.

I just have one thing to say and that is that we do live in a plural legal society. Im not a lawyer, but remember, we have state law, customary law, and maybe even religious law operational in Kenya, especially when it comes to land. The state has been so weak, so incapable and so inconsistent. Someone in government recently said that a title is just a piece of paper. Were the state (and thus titles) capable and legitimate, we wouldnt be having this problem in Eldoret and Kericho. It would have been unambiguous who the real land owner was. In any case, step back for a moment and consider where the Bill of Rights came from? Why should we privilege that over customary norms which seem to be prevalent over most of Kenya. There is a problem. Truth has been telling.

Ok Timothy, I concede, there were lots of interactions between the Mumbi people and others even before the mzungu came over to disrupt the harmony. Didnt mean to discount that. I wonder, how do you suppose it would have played itself out if the mzungu hadnt come this way? Did the mzungu just fast track change, privatization, exclusion etc? Or would that not have happened?

re: multiple laws
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

I just have one thing to say and that is that we do live in a plural legal society. Im not a lawyer, but remember, we have state law, customary law, and maybe even religious law operational in Kenya, especially when it comes to land. The state has been so weak, so incapable and so inconsistent. Someone in government recently said that a title is just a piece of paper. Were the state (and thus titles) capable and legitimate, we wouldn

Hey just a thought:

If you were a bank manager would you accept land in the rift valley as collateral

Before I digress, Where does the idea of East Africa Federation fit in Uganda and especially Tanzania might be having a rethink.

The proppsed national conference would for instance discuss the issue of individual rights(You can own land anywhere ) versus communal rights (land belongs to the community

Is it Kimunya (when he was Lands Minister) who said titles are just pieces of paper .

Now we can see it .Lets face the clashes have proved this.

We should awaken now .Are there Kenyans here

re: what framework?
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

What would they discuss? You cannot start a discussion without a framework.

What framework does any concerned citizen need to mobilize for and discuss Kenyas future right now? If you dont have anything useful to add, dont derail a creative thought. Kwenda huko huko!

What we're saying is that we resent being held hostage by politicians and that they may not be truthfully representing our aspirations. Treason indeed!

You have no capacity to learn
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Alexander. You seem out to maliciously mispresent me, my thoughts and what I do. So I wont bother too much with your post, na ukwende huko huko. Whats strange is that my contributions are disappearing mysteriously. I just sent out one responding to Wanyamas tirade but cant see it. Too bad.
Also, its not MK.

Presidency
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

One Agenda for our discussion should be to do away with this imperial presidency

I believe that it is not a symbol of any unity but it divides us so much.

Secondly we should discuss land ownership and communal versus individual rights

We need suggestions on how to bypass the politicians any ideas

dear debile MK
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 25, 2008

I am not against any discussions,or any forum, they would indeed be very useful. But we cannot at all tolerate any measures that seek to question the validity of claims to land on the basis of ancestral attachments. That is indeed treasonous, and most simple-minded. Kimunya was not speaking about title -deeds, he was speaking about a contract between the Maasai and the British, which contract many would argue was voided by the independent state.

--------------------
In the period represented by these dashes, MK's rather silly dream has come true. Kenyans are now asked to live where their ancestors came from, Raila is forced to give up the swindled Molasses land (yippppeeee!!), Parliament Buildings becomes a Manyatta, Wanyama is forced to move out of Bukusu, there is a mass migration up into Sudan, the Ogiek come out to survey their bounty, and they like what they see.

I am Ogiek.

what do you mean framework?
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

You sound somewhat crazed, so I'll tread gently. Since when did citizens concerned about their future need a FRAMEWORK to talk about what they want and how they want to get it. It is, and i will quote the despicable ruto, their constitutional right, end of quote. So shut up and go back to your peanuts.

You have no will to learn
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

Alexander. You seem out to maliciously mispresent me, my thoughts and what I do.

Nope. I have deeply understood what you wrote and have characterized it most accurately, while you didn't understand your own words, as has become obvious now.

And now retrieve your brain from protective storage and begin to study the Maasai migration history in earnest.
Then come back duly contrite, and apologize to Stephen and me.

Whats strange is that my contributions are disappearing mysteriously. I just sent out one responding to Wanyamas tirade but cant see it. Too bad.

Too bad you are not able to use the refresh function of your browser. That piece of knowledge must have been in the stored part of brain.

Alexander

facts
written by emmo opoti , January 25, 2008

It is always useful in these matters to read a lot before commenting. While our national passion for credentials (makaratasi) knows no quenching, it is also true that many, most Kenyans have an even greater passion for speaking out of ignorance.

Here is a link the CBS website, please download and read at leisure, for example. Kenya, Facts and Figures, 2007. PDF

Please try to learn
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

If theres anyone rightfully aggrieved, its the Maasai. And yes, if they staked a claim, we would all have to listen.

Absolutely the contrary, Mkosakabila (name now spelled in full as behooves, sorry for my previous lazy abbreviation).

If there is anyone unrightfully complaining, to whom was done poetic justice in return for injustice, it's the Maasai.

We have both studied the history of land-taking in Kenya, but as it appears, from different ethnic perspectives:

Your perspective, MK, is that of the colonialists who came from afar, to conquer by force of sword and spear, and by virtue of supremely racist arrogance, because they were deeming themselves better than other lowly smaller two-legged creatures of darker colour, whom God evidently did not want to rule over such beautiful land.

My perspective is that of the dispossessed and subdued original "owners" (or, rather, usufructuary users) of such land.

Just because something is doesnt mean it is right or that it should continue being so. Am serious about this.

Exactly that is why I am serious about what I wrote above.

Alexander

Point of information
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

When Kimunya made those points the NARC governent had just evicted some Kenyans from a ''forest reserve'' and they did have title deeds.

What I keep pointing out is that we cannot keep Kenya together by force.We have to decide to either be together or go our separate ways.

Kenya\'s First Peoples
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

Dear "Ndorobo" (I hope Mkosakabila understands the reason for the distancing quotation marks):

The history of the ethnic integration or extermination (is there a difference? if so, which?) of the original inhabitants of Mount Kenya and its pre-forestal slopes from the mid-18th to the early 20th century is most worthy of studying.
A female Museums of Kenya archaeologist has recently touched the issue tangentially in her Norwegian thesis from 2006, based primarily on pottery excavations, but she very justly with self-criticism deplores her own lack of ethnological grounding.

Alexander

re: framework for discussion
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

MK -
On ancestral land issue, how far back do we go? The kikuyus would end up being evicted from the Mt. Kenya region by the short and brown Ndorobos who were the original Mt. Kenya inhabitants. So, as a Ndorobo I am sitting pretty just like the Ogieks.

Truth justice and reconciliation .the first agend will be whether we want to be Kenyans.

May be Luo might want to join their Kin in Tanzania/Uganda.(Tim would be extremely happy)

The Teso to Uganda(after the madness they have seen),The Oromo to Ethiopia .

How does this sound

framework for discussion
written by Ndorobo , January 25, 2008

Since when did citizens concerned about their future need a FRAMEWORK to talk about what they want and how they want to get it.

Mkosakabila - for any meaningful discussion to take place, there needs to be a metric. There cannot be talk for the sake of talk; any meeting has to have an agenda. Even a late-night rendezvous has an agenda: get crunk, get drunk or maybe get lucky.

Attempts at joking aside, many grievances have been aired but the one thing that has not been fully addressed is the under-represented people of Central RV, Central Province, Nairobi and Nyanza and most urban areas. The people in these areas were systemically disenfranchised by Moi's regime tactic of gerrymandering. What you get are constituencies in North Rift with 20,000 people while places like Juja, Ol Kalou, Nakuru, Kisumu Town etc have population of greater than 50,000 people. This sis not true representation. This is not true democracy. Will the real champions of democracy please stand up?

On ancestral land issue, how far back do we go? The Kikuyus would end up being evicted from the Mt. Kenya region by the short and brown Ndorobos who were the original Mt. Kenya inhabitants. So, as a Ndorobo I am sitting pretty just like the Ogieks.

not
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 25, 2008

No, simpleton, please do not put words into my mouth, I am not for any such thing, but that indeed is the end of the foolishness that justifies the spirit of the Rift Valley gangs.

...
written by Timothy Wainaina , January 25, 2008

TruthbeTold
You cannot have a title deed to land that is forest reserve, just as you cannot have one to land that is road reserve. The Messiah has also demonstrated this in the famed road reserve demolitions.

There is every need for the government to protect the greater good. In deciding to question the land rights of people who have paid for it in sweat and tears, merely to appease others on account of force of arms, we are therefore endorsing ethno-fascism, and no wonder, this is the ODM faith, just look at the action of Kisumu's people on the Asians, Kisiis and GEMA of their town. We say kazi iendelee, and they say mawe, mawe., hummer, stones, knives- and soda.

New land laws are needed
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

TruthbeTold
You cannot have a title deed to land that is forest reserve, just as you cannot have one to land that is road reserve.

But that is the *very* problem that the reckless and blind introduction (and its later unqualified maintenance after not-yet-uhuru) of British land laws (including the dominium supereminens of the Crown and all that still surviving medieval ridiulous stuff) has posed.

What Kenya needs, is a set of totally reformed land laws, with different dogmatics. Title deeds and free dominium may be appropriate for cities and large towns, but cannot properly regulate the African ownership - dare I say stewardship? lest one pretend to not understand ususfructus - of agricultural, riparian and forested lands.

Alexander

Framework for discussion
written by Ndorobo , January 25, 2008

Truth justice and reconciliation .the first agend will be whether we want to be Kenyans.
Truth - that we are a capitalist society and some popele made some bad deals.
Justice - willing buyer, willing seller. Enough said. The people being evicted from their land are not kenyatta's relatives, they are the descedants of freedom fighters. they are descedants of peasants who had nothing in Central and moved away from geographic comfort and family to make a better life. A life that is now being shattered. Some of them were squatters on white farms.
Reconciliation - if you made a dumb move, recognize it as a lesson learned, rise up and face the future with no remorse. You do not kill the husband of your high school sweetheart. You try look for a better girl.

May be Luo might want to join their Kin in Tanzania/Uganda.(Tim would be extremely happy)


The Teso to Uganda(after the madness they have seen),The Oromo to Ethiopia .

How does this sound
I am glad that the EAC allows free movement, if moving away from theri homes is what it takes for them to feel at home, they can be my guests. (pun intended)

...
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

The last I looked it was Kenya, not utopia. Depending on who you know and how much you are willing to pay, you can get a title to almost anything. And yes, I do agree with you, we cannot go after rightful land owners, especially if the acquisition was not perceived to be fraudulent, by custom and by statute. I hate to say this, but you cannot protect an individual from her/his neighbor by force, forever. Mutual accomodations sound better.

...
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

That latter is actually one of the several tiers of a (necessarily dogmatically differentiated) future land laws system (note plural). I had written about all that here in KI in the past.

Grazing and fishing rights (must I name the pertinent ethnic groups?) are such that might best be established with prerogative to contractual and consensual agreement - what Mkosakabila nicely calls "mutual accomodation", a word with which I fully concur -, and with Africanized easements only as secondary solution that the statute law can propose in default of such agreements, and for resolution of dispute.

Alexander

hello
written by emmo opoti , January 25, 2008

Land tenure in Kenya is not allodial and as such in the interests of the public good (we really are killing our forests and our water sources) Kimunya was right ( if perhaps rude) in saying what he did, just as Raila Odinga in his action on those who built on road reserves was, i.e. in the interests of public good the state whose land it is anyway ( what is the Kenyan equivalent to Johnston vs Mc'Intosh? Crown Lands Ordinance of 1915?) can and should declare eminent domain.

Wanyama and Wainaina are right in my opinion, land rights are absolute between private citizens, and cannot absolutely cannot be challenged on the basis of tribe. I suppose it would be any easy thing to show that even the likes of William Ruto likely have their antecedents further south? The land resettlement schemes did benefit Kenyans across the board, including many landless Kalenjin, and to suggest that anyone belongs anywhere would really be difficult to prove, remember again that in our traditional systems land did not belong to tribes, but perhaps to clans or even smaller units.

On what basis are some declaring superior title when one has worked a piece of land, built on it, paid for it and is recognised by the law as its unchallenged (in law) owner? It seems to me that squatters are a totally different matter (especially Coastals who were really tricked off their land) I do not remember the Kalenjin proper (Nandi, Kipsigis being tricked off their land) this claim is less spurious with regard to the Maasai and the Pokot) who curiously seem not to be on the same violent rampages.

However, as both the CKRC and the Njonjo Commission have recommended, where the need is shown, "historical land claims must be redressed as historical injustices as a sure means of dealing with insecurity, landlessness and poverty among the majority of citizens. The Bomas and the Wako Draft quite clearly show a common willingness on the part of all Kenyans to tackle such injustices even as we must properly insist that land rights must be guaranteed.

The question as to whether the Rift Valley skirmishes are really about land still stands however. I for one do not think it is.

wicked problem of interest
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Leggsunder. How do I access your prior postings on future land laws system. They are of interest. I buy the plural! and the secondary solution too.

...
written by Daniel.Waweru , January 25, 2008

I think Emmo's onto something with the thought that the present mess is not, at least directly, about the land issue.

If it was, you'd expect the violence to break out in places where much of the land is owned by non-Kalenjins. But that doesn't appear to be the case. Much of the violence, for example, has occured in Uasin Gishu District. But by 1993, after the first round of violence, UGD had the largest number of displaced people, and very few non-indigenous landowners remained: the clashes were wildly successful in displacing them. Very few were able to return to their land. See pp. 33-5 of Divide and Rule: State-Sponsored Ethnic Violence in Kenya.

And I'll quibble with emmo's thought about the nature of land tenure. There's already a fairly well-established doctrine of native tenure (see Mabo). There's no reason why that doctrine should not attract the interest of the Kenyan authorities. If it did, then we could begin to think about how to honour communal land rights.

re: Insidious, PS
written by InSidious , January 25, 2008

Just one question, how come ODM types are immune to reason?

It would be disingenuous on my part to denying the culpability of all political affiliations. Regardless, I find that it would be disingenuous to attempt to convince you of the obvious or perhaps paint a picture of what is apparent for the same set of eyes just to appeal to ego.

To react to every nuance of irrationality in my opinion would be a demonstration of that irrationality. I opt not to.

...
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

What would the violence be about? Some people dont like how some other people look? Maybe not about land on its own. Funny how others who have managed to kill and or chase others away are now renaming and taking over the farms of those they have killed and or chased away. If not about land, in some way, why bother to take it over? Youd just kill and or chase away. The more interesting question is why are we not seeing this violence all round especially in some areas that were notorious for flushing out others in prior times? Little has been heard from Narok, yet. Did they all leave and not return after the last cycle? But then also, if it were solely about land, why dont we see this violence sustained including in-between elections? Why does it so far coincide with the elections?

One last point, just because something is written in the law does not mean that it is, conversely, if it is not written in the law does not necessarily mean that it does not exist. It might help to look at what is happening around you

discuss what?
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 25, 2008

What would they discuss? You cannot start a discussion without a framework. DO you really think before you type? Unless someone has land given to them in the Rift Valley through corruption, eg the Moi kids, the likes of Kosgei, Biwott, Gumo, Musalia and so on, then that land is theirs. Attempting to even argue that they should move out of there is in a word treasonous, you are then dismantling the very reason for the existence of this country.

There must be absolutely no tolerance for anyone who is looking to turn a poor person out of their house, none whatsoever.

Where are those IDPs going to end up? Damn right, in Nairobi jacking you, and their children, and their children's children whereas at the moment they are productive Kenyans, the engine of the breadbasket of Kenya, do you get it now?

re: re:
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

Viability depends on willingness other wise things for apart.

Point to Ponder:

Was Kenya a forced marriage?

Wanyama--why such fear?
written by mkosakabila , January 25, 2008

Ancestral claims to land are increasingly recognized all over the world, see Indonesia, Australia and even Canada etc. It just simply means a renegotiation of terms of access and a legal recognition of certain rights that previously were not recognized. Why such fear? Did you do anything you ought not to have done? Relax.

I am the Pope.

Oh, Wuod
written by Daniel.Waweru , January 25, 2008

Must disagree with you. This is a v promising step, in my opinion. These are the victims of the worst atrocity so far, and they've been able to sublimate their desire for revenge (unlike, apparently, some of their compatriots in Nakuru); instead, they're looking for legal remedies. This is precisely what aggrieved Kenyans ought to be doing.

Hii nini?
written by Wuod Aketch , January 25, 2008

(Some callous trolling edited away. Ed.)

Some survivors of the church massacre in Kenya went to court today to try to stop the ongoing peace negotiations championed by former U.N. boss Kofi Annan.
Link here
(...)
I conclude that we are still very far from the figures we habitually see in conflicts around Africa. In the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), 3.9 million have died since 1998 from war-related violence, hunger and disease. More than 300,000 Congolese refugees have sought asylum in six countries, 1.3 million are internally displaced, and the conflict has been going on for several years. (...) we are still far from the norm of African conflicts.

you do not understand
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 25, 2008

Dear me,
Daniel Waweru does not seem to understand. Our friend Wuod has an active interest in the increase of violence, the more bodies the merrier, (...)

What a take
written by InSidious , January 25, 2008

Any single atrocity is just as callous, and simply because the majority have yet to receive media attention doesn't make them any less significant that what we witnessed in Eldoret. (...)

It would be perhaps genuine if the government went in and did a little bit more that just provide lip service to these Kenyan families. It's also interesting to note that the government is closing down certain camps. So much for compassion.

"Tembo wawili wakipigana nyasi ndiyo ziumiazo" I'm certain you know that.

...
written by D , January 26, 2008

Koitalel

My friend, does what has happened in the past justify what is happening in Nakuru? I don't think so. There are land issues to be solved but murdering, arson and evicting people IS NOT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT. Innocent people are dying. What about the owners of small businesses who bought land and were going about their business. Suddenly they are homeless. Is this supposed to be justice for the past?

These mobs that are attacking each other are also burning property. What purpose does it serve to destroy the land? Are these mobs going to build everything back up and resume farming? I doubt it.

You say people should return the land that is not theirs. Then who does it belong to? Even if we were to do that, does that mean that every person from a certain ethnic group gets a piece but others don't. We need to stop thinking along ethnic lines. It is Kenyan land owned by Kenyans. Are we saying that certain provinces should only be occupied by certain ethnic groups? Sorry, but that is not how a country should be run. In that case, the white people in the US should be forcibly evicted to give the land back to the American Indians. The white people in Australia should be removed and give back what is theirs. Zimbabwe did this with white farmers- look at their economy now!!! Send African Americans and black people in South America and the Caribbean back to Africa? There are things that happened in past that were brutal and unfair but this sudden uprooting of what is established just to rectify the past is not the way to go. You have to USE OTHER MEASURES to deal with it. The governments of Kenya have ignored the problem and swept it under the carpet. We need serious land reforms and integration but suddenly evicting innocent KENYANS is not right and is a crime against humanity.

It is not every Kalenjin fighting. These are opportunistic mobs baying for blood in the name of revenge. If their purpose is to fight for land, why are they burning it down at the same time?

We need to start to think of ourselves as Kenyans and not kikuyus, or kalenjins, or luos or kambas. It is now clear as day that something is broken in the Rift Valley and we should try to fix it immediately. Or 5 years from now, we will be back to the same thing.

God bless Kenya

Serious land reforms and integ
written by mkosakabila , January 26, 2008

These sound like good things to do as against the violence. Hurrah. I hope Koitalel agrees.
Any thoughts on how to do the integration and what kinds of land reforms? Let's start with the north rift, and then can modify as needs be to other places.

Two wrongs.
written by koitalel , January 26, 2008

Two wrongs do not make a right. I have read all your contributions hear and began to wonder if we are not engaging in gerrymandering.

First, it was wrong for the British colonialists to have forcefully taken our land. That was a crime against humanity.

Second, It was and is still wrong for the Kikuyu to have forcefully occupied the land of other tribes who had not yet embraced capitalistic tendencies and still practiced communal land ownership.

Finally, there was no need of chasing the British colonialists only to replace with Kikuyu colonialists, who used the advantage of being in power to dispossess other communities of their basic birth right.

Forget about the normal cries of ....ooh, we bought land using his and that land buying co. The truth is, this people brutally grabbed our land. It is time they return what is not theirs.

(1) Don't blame entire ethnic groups.

(2)Post-independence migrants did not occupy the land by force. Many of them bought the land in good faith.

(3) The Nandi, and other Nandi-influenced Kalenjin groups practiced both individual and communal land tenure.

(4) Much of the land in dispute now was occupied by the Nandi during their expansion in the 19th century between around 1850 and 1900 (See Territorial expansion of the Nandi of Kenya, 1500-1905). Substantial portions of that land were previously occupied by the Maasai (especially in Uasin Gishu). Presumably, you deplore that violent theft as much as subsequent ones.

(5) There have been speakers of Bantu languages in (what is now) the North Rift since the 1700s, and Gikuyu speakers since at least the 1920's.

(6) Most of the victims of the attacks have not been land owners, and most of the largest non-Kalenjin land owners have not been attacked.

(7) Kalenjin groups were incorporated into the colonial cash economy by military service as early as World War I. (See any good history of Kenya; A Modern History of Kenya is 300 bob at TBC.)

( Further hate-mongering will compel us to do without your company. Consider yourself warned.

-Eds.-

Moral Ethnicity/Political Trib
written by Q , January 26, 2008

E'rebody done become an expert! Very interesting thread I must say!

Dat good sah who wrote about this here topic "Moral Ethnicity/Political Tribalism" me thinks covered with one broad brush all dem details been discussed above!
Moral ethnicity WILL trump Political Tribalism all day!
How do we silence Political Tribalism coz dat dere is THE issue... get rid of all dem duffle bag boys and they bosses!

ED
written by Koitalel , January 27, 2008

(Deleted. We mean what we say. Eds.)

re: Two wrongs.
written by InSidious , January 27, 2008

(1) Don't blame entire ethnic groups.

(2)Post-independence migrants did not occupy the land by force. Many of them bought the land in good faith.

(3) The Nandi, and other Nandi-influenced Kalenjin groups practiced both individual and communal land tenure.

(4) Much of the land in dispute now was occupied by the Nandi during their expansion in the 19th century between around 1850 and 1900 (See Territorial expansion of the Nandi of Kenya, 1500-1905). Substantial portions of that land were previously occupied by the Maasai (especially in Uasin Gishu). Presumably, you deplore that violent theft as much as subsequent ones.

(5) There have been speakers of Bantu languages in (what is now) the North Rift since the 1700s, and Gikuyu speakers since at least the 1920's.

(6) Most of the victims of the attacks have not been land owners, and most of the largest non-Kalenjin land owners have not been attacked.

(7) Kalenjin groups were incorporated into the colonial cash economy by military service as early as World War I. (See any good history of Kenya; A Modern History of Kenya is 300 bob at TBC.)

( Further hate-mongering will compel us to do without your company. Consider yourself warned.

-Eds.-

The need to separate a variety of core issues cannot be downplayed. The violence brutally meted out on civilians, no matter ones ethnicity or bias will traumatize this nation for several generations.

One cannot justify the killing of another. Every soul has a story, every soul has personality that is unique and every soul is answerable as an individual. Collective assumptions of hate, killing or maiming are simply gnawing away at each our hearts & sanity. I'm certain for those who see it as it is hardly need a lecture and for some who opt to wage war against their own kind, Kenyans, for the simple reasons of misplaced ancestral entitlements cannot be entertained.

Everyone is an individual, and so are the politicians. Grievances cannot be collective, they are individual and to snuff out another Kenyans life, who just might have as a compelling a story as anyone ready this, is in my view emotionally devastating, heartbreaking & unacceptable.

It is increasingly difficult to wrap our emotions around individual ideologies that day in, day out result in collective battles of a bloody massacre.

It is with this preserve (despite my individual reservations and bias, just as anyone else) that I urge the editors to carry on. Some men (and women) lead the way, others follow, while others keep us in tow. It's an irreversible & inevitable balance of laws that we must subscribe to is a life is worth saving and yet, whose call is that, the Almighty's; not us to decide who lives or dies because we can't agree with one another or live among one another.

Individuals and not communities are accountable to their acts despite the overwhelming desire for retribution on either side.

cont>>>>>
written by InSidious , January 27, 2008

In addition, Eldoret was founded by the Cmdt. Jan Janse van Rensburg who was born in the W.Transvaal and led the Boer trek north in 1908 as a result of the British Concentration camps in South Africa. Eldoret was then known a Station 64.

land leasing
written by roots , February 05, 2008

I have an idea about land problem. It might sound stupid anyways but who knows it might work.

How about land leasing. Kenyans life expectancy is only 50yrs. Why should you own big chunk of land when u cant work it all. Land should be bought by the goverment from kenyas biggest land owners . If need be they should be forced to sell. This land should be leased to the poor for a number of yrs say 50. The rent for leasing should be cheap so that poor landless can afford it. One last thing, the leasing should be through lottery. We dont have enough land for everybody i think we should rent it just as we rent houses.
I hope this doesnt sound stupid.

Land tax
written by a guest , February 05, 2008

How about a land tax. If you own large tracts of land, say larger than a certain acrage, we tax you based on utilization. That is, the better utilized the land is, the lower the land tax, the vice versa.The more productive the land, the higher the potential land tax rate. This way, the country can recover some of the opportunity cost of your denying others the use of this land....after all, if that land was given to others to better utilize it, the government would receive revenues in the form of income tax from this land.

I believe this idea has been brought up before, I think by Uhuru in the 2002 election.