...
written by aeichener , January 04, 2008

You seem to live on reverse night-day rhythm now, muhanga?

One picture is often more compelling than many words; so please let use see more, as bitter as they are. But please also contrast with photos of what is still intact or untouched after the onslaught.

Alexander

mawe, mawe, mawe
written by Jibril Tangaza , January 04, 2008

Mwai Kibaki has absolutely nothing to do with this. Those of us with roots in Kisumu will confess that this is just how Kisumu people behave. They love to destroy and then sit idly by complaining that business and government are giving the city a wide berth.
I am angry at the politicians yes, but to keep looking to Raila and Kibaki and pointing the fingers at them just will not do. Kisumu people have very bad destructive manners and they cannot live or build anything without the support of 'foreigners'. The whole of that town was owned by Kikuyus, Kisiis and Asians. After every death of a celebrity (whether natural or suspicious), after every football match, at every election these louts are sure to destroy, destroy, destroy.
My sincere hope is that none of those business people come back. The people of Kisumu should feel free to rebuild their city with their oranges and their Raila. We are sick and tired of rebuilding what they have destroyed.

...
written by Eva , January 04, 2008

Isn't that a bit cold?

...
written by aeichener , January 04, 2008

I feel it is more hot (angry, deeply disappointed, desperate) than cold. It is a bit on the verge, but since it more expresses his own suffering and hurt, than hatred or outward-directed agression (and certainly not incitement, such as has been edited away thoroughly by the moderators in many other postings), I think one should leave it at that and let Jibril's cry stay here.

Alexander

Eva
written by Jibril Tangaza , January 04, 2008

I am sorry, I am very sorry you feel this is cold. We have lived here for close to thirty years now, we have built from nothing, we have taken out loans, we have mortgaged our souls for this city. There is a very continuous cycle which I am afraid those who do not know Kisumu cannot see.
This is a city of such deprivation now, a city of such anguish. I do not know that those of us leaving will ever come back, those of us holed up at the airport for days on end, escaping the people we had been providing with food, shelter, credit and transport facilities. Many of us even speak Dholuo, we have been here for ages really, our grandparents were here with us as we were evacuated. We have sunk all our lives here, and now poof it is gone in a puff of smoke.

Can anyone from Kisumu back me up on this one? The world thinks I tell a lie, but this city will have to change, or businesses will keep staying away. Can you imagine what the insurance premiums are going to be?

...
written by James Muritu , January 04, 2008

What Kisumu residents are forgetting is that those businesses they burned, though owned by Kikuyus and Asians, employed locals, thus guaranteeing a source of income. The people to bear the full brunt of the damage are Kisumu residents themselves and not the kikuyus and asians. I think 10,000+ jobs have been destroyed in less than a week. Its another big step backwards for the people of Kisumu. Meanwhile the leaders you did this for are comfortably wining and dining somewhere in Muthaiga or Karen. God help us.

What man can build and destroy
written by Wuod Aketch , January 04, 2008

What man can build and destroy can be rebuilt.

Most of the fires in the buildings were lit by the expeditionary force sent there by Kibaki - a video report somewhere on this forum attests just that.

Prove it with a hyperlink or the inciting remark will be erased. Eds.

Similar desolating images come from all over the country - Kisumu is no exception.

(Cruel mockery of suffering and destruction deleted. Eds.)

Otherwise Kenyans are demanding their democratic rights - possible justice by a re-tally or a re-election, and will continue to do so until they get satisfaction.

re: Eva
written by aeichener , January 04, 2008

Can anyone from Kisumu back me up on this one? The world thinks I tell a lie, but this city will have to change, or businesses will keep staying away.

I have heard two people from Kisumu (both black, FYI, both with mixed ethnic heritage, both integrated there, but also having been widely around the block elsewhere) say *exactly* the same as you did, in the last two days.
I was a bit shocked about the negativity, but have noted it. :-(

Alexander

Indian flight
written by a guest , January 04, 2008

The flight already began. Many of them have fled to Kampala. Interestingly a lot of Indians moved to Kisumu from Kampala following Idi Amin's tyranny-- ironies, eh? Those who can will leave for the UK as they did (circa Matiba)

...
written by James Muritu , January 04, 2008

Talking of the damage in Kisumu, let me explain a scenario that might take place:
For the Kikuyus, Kisiis and Asians whose businesses were burned, the chaps will claim insurance, sell whatever property they had in Kisumu and retreat to safer areas. For the Asians, most likely they will head to UK, Canada or Australia. Raila will drive to town and be cheered wildly promising more milk and honey. The joy is temporary as reality bites hard and fast. Poverty levels rise. People get more desparate. Then complaints start rocking in: "Our region is being neglected!"
This is the more reason people need to think before they act.

...
written by James Muritu , January 04, 2008

Aketch, I disagree with you. I watched on youtube, clips of the violence in Kisumu and for sure, guys were out to loot, steal and destroy. Some chaps, were literally removing their shoes and trying out new looted ones. Meanwhile others were helping one another to carry looted TVs, microwaves etc. That was not a case of expeditionary force sent there. Its was a case of short term thinking without looking at the bigger picture.

What we lost was not replaced
written by aeichener , January 04, 2008

Kenyan administration has lost a lot of Indians (Goans, Sikhs, Parsis) over the last 50 years, much due to natural attrition and greener post-colonial pastures abroad, admittedly.

But that is one of the main reason for the decay of civil and public service in Kenya. Same is due for the death of philanthropy in Kenya.

Alexander

re:
written by manta ray , January 04, 2008

What Kisumu residents are forgetting is that those businesses they burned, though owned by Kikuyus and Asians, employed locals, thus guaranteeing a source of income. The people to bear the full brunt of the damage are Kisumu residents themselves and not the kikuyus and asians. I think 10,000+ jobs have been destroyed in less than a week. Its another big step backwards for the people of Kisumu. Meanwhile the leaders you did this for are comfortably wining and dining somewhere in Muthaiga or Karen. God help us.

I have lived in Kisumu and i can tell you that the aftermath of such mayhem is quite often a time for sober reflection tinged with a sense of approaching doom and hopelessness by the perpetrators. There is also a sense of utter dejection, regret and a pitiful attitude that whatever happens will happen. Generally they go back to a life of daily survival until the next demagogue comes along to whip up their fragile emotions, and the beast is unleashed once again. Actually, it can be quite funny when you see it.

with Jibril
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 04, 2008

I suppose middle class Kenyans, or indeed anyone who owns something exists in a world parallel to that of looters and anarchists. We exist to build and destroy, we have tendencies to treasure and nurture, whereas others merely subsist and as such cannot comprehend the sacrifices, the pain and the time it takes to provide the things they so take for granted.








Asians in Kisumu have long been the victims of such attacks, I suppose they have factored this into their insurance but as Jibril says, many Kenyan businesses do tend to stay away from Kisumu for a while, ignoring its status as Kenya's third city.

There are those, anthropologists perhaps, who would go into a midrash of the cultural influences on business cultures, differentiating between those with a sedentary lifestyle and those with a nomadic-quasi nomadic lifestyle, those who had to enslave the land, versus those who could simply harvest of it. But the political atmosphere at the moment does not permit this, so I will let it by.

WuodAketch,
Kisumu is not Beirut. Kisumu was already a somewhat backward city, subsisting for example without a functioning cinema or even a Nakumatt or an Uchumi for quite a long time.
What really hurts Kisumu is that its more dominant ethnicity does not have a mercantilist demeanour. It therefore depends on wageni to fulfil these vital roles from waKisii was Nyamasaria with their matatus, to mitumba dealers and butchers from Central Province, textile dealers of Indian origin and so on. Those of us from the city will confess that at every election since 1992, at the death of Robert Ouko, Jaramogi Oginga Odinga, the loss of a key football match, etc, there is always guaranteed to be such mayhem.

As Zimbabwe is a sure example, when you want to turf 'foreigners' out, wherever in the world it is, ensure you have a back-up plan. Kisumu's pain will be someone else's joy as skills and cultural competence is transferred elsewhere. Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda, here we come.

Kisumu : That rebel city , I
written by Wuod Aketch , January 04, 2008

I am from Kisumu and was there last August. Of all the towns I visited in Kenya last summer, it was one of the few towns that had not lost it's charm. Nairobi and Mombasa were too overcrowded and with too much road traffic and jams.
The tuk-tuk, the boda-boda bicycle rides ... and relaxed people make that city a nice place to go.
I am optimistic for this town because the other two cities are too overcrowded and already business congested and people are looking to do business in calm environments. If the government ceases to marginalize the rest of the country then there is hope - it is not only hope but they determined to change things are surely going to achieve this.

As concerns Jibril Tangaza's comment, I think this time that it is not Kisumu alone that will have to change but Kenya as a whole or the country will be marginalized.

On another note, those buildings that were burnt down were eyesores. Better ones will surely be built where they stood.

...
written by from Kisumu , January 04, 2008

Ala? Well, it is true that the GSU caused the fire, esp the one on Wedco center. The looting on the other hand was done by residents of Kisumu. Let's take responsibility for our actions, its the only way we will grow!

Link here
Link format edited such as to become directly clickable. Eds.

Let your "god"save you
written by Kay , January 04, 2008

I agree with what has been said. what or who needs to be dealt with are these idlers who are unappreciative of what the businesses, and individuals have done for them. Odd jobs for their survivals etc. Now who will they run to? Will Raila feed them? Will Raila give them jobs? Will Raila take care of the families who have lost their jobs due to the many business men who have opted to close down for good and relocate? I don't think so....so please pray to your God Raila to save you now.....I am personally so sick and tired of all this and a bit too emotional now to make any more comments.....

And yes, I agree with Aeichener too...Philanthropy in Kenya will die...to the loss of the people of Kenya......

Double Loosers
written by kendirangu , January 04, 2008

The people of Kisumu have lost twice:
Not only did they loose the elections (fairly or unfairly), but they have also, in a foolish display of anger gone ahead to destroy whatever goodwill and development the city had managed to attract over the years.

My worry is not even the present generation of businessmen who will move out but also the challenge of attracting any new businessmen or investors.

This kind of short term thinking from their political leaders should cause some people to think twice.
The problem of this region and many other affected areas, has been the lack of proper education and the inability of the citizens to realize that, while a politician only sees 5yrs ahead, we must see beyond our lives and into those of our children and beyond.

Wuod, It sounds like a nice idea to rebuild the city and make it even better. But the houses may not be rebuilt overnight. It will take a brave investor to come back there, worse still, in the eyes of an actuary Kisumu is no longer the same.
The peace may come back and prevail, but some scars will take generations to heal.

...
written by James Muritu , January 04, 2008

Going forward, we now need to reason as Kenyans rather than Kisumu dwellers and outsiders. My home town is not Kisumu and neither am I from Nyanza; but as a patriotic Kenyan, I feel sad when Kisumu or LD are in flames, because the towns belong to Kenya and not Nyanzaians or Coastarians. For me, the best I will do is speak positively about both cities and encourage outside investors I know there not to shy away.

...
written by Mshangao , January 04, 2008

When you see all the destruction that has taken place, one has no choice but to be angry at the people themselves. Why burn and loot just because the outcome of a political process hasn't gone your way? in the end, its you the people who have destroyed the city, that suffer while the greedy leaders you are fighting for are enjoying life in comfort in the confines of their safe homes. It's just stupidity and childish if you ask me. do these people evn think???!!! am just so mad!

...
written by Bulldog -Jibril, aeichener , January 04, 2008

Hate talk erased. Ed.

Kisumu and residents didn\'t l
written by Wuod Aketch , January 04, 2008

Kisumu and residents didn't lose: but Kenyans did

We are all talking here about the result of a discontent displayed by the street.

The cause is what you all fail to admit.
As usual we are trying to drown the fish by pointing fingers at Kisumu and it's residents.

Well the matter about looting shops is more complicated than you think. It happens world wide - in Paris when people protest, there are always people among the disgruntled mobs that go looting. Some youths even set fire to their parent's and relatives cars. The effect of looting is always less felt because the police do not light fires to burn down shops and spray the raia with bullets unlike the Kenyan police philosophy of "shoot to kill". People also insure their businesses and buildings.

I do not think that a particular tribe lost - Kenyans lost and continue to lose. How can someone claim victory when the "UN says 100,000 Kenyans face starvation" ?

Well,well,well...
written by Ken , January 04, 2008

you call Kisumu a calm city?or did I misunderstand?After the exemplary perfomance of how things turn out to be in a crisis?

''I am optimistic for this town because the other two cities are too overcrowded and already business congested and people are looking to do business in calm environments.''

re:
written by Ken , January 04, 2008

My home town is not Kisumu and neither am I from Nyanza; but as a patriotic Kenyan, I feel sad when Kisumu or LD are in flames, because the towns belong to Kenya and not Nyanzaians or Coastarians. For me, the best I will do is speak positively about both cities and encourage outside investors I know there not to shy away.

It

It has something to do with the mentality of the people residing there.I agree that education would do much to help ease the behavioural aspect,ie in the long run.short term solution would be finding a way to involve the people in constructive economical engagement.somehow tie them to the system,so that they wount be rash in their acting...

...
written by Magana , January 04, 2008

It may take a very long time for Kisumu to recover. When small businesses are destroyed, economic life grinds to a halt. Just taking the United States example--When African Americans rioted in the late 1960s following the murder of Dr. Martin Luther Kings, they destroyed many business establishments in their own neighborhoods. Today, majority Black sections of US cities are still economically depressed and many of the older people who remember the vibrant days only wish the anger had been directed in other ways.

re: Eva
written by Silas , January 04, 2008

Can anyone from Kisumu back me up on this one? The world thinks I tell a lie, but this city will have to change, or businesses will keep staying away. Can you imagine what the insurance premiums are going to be?

The demand for democratic rights is the new Trojan horse for a people to consistently destruction and loot. It was a big error for Kibaki to think of locating the East African Community at Kisumu, the destruction here is almost habitual a sort of hobby, have relative

re: Eva
written by Silas , January 04, 2008

Can anyone from Kisumu back me up on this one? The world thinks I tell a lie, but this city will have to change, or businesses will keep staying away. Can you imagine what the insurance premiums are going to be?

The destruction here is almost habitual a sort of hobby, have relative

Dear Silas, we are trying to fix a glitch in our system that cuts off comments at the point where dashes, apostrophes and quotation marks are inserted. Please republish your comment without these marks, Thank You.

Mr
written by kalutajr , January 04, 2008

It is virtually impossible to exercise First world's style democracy in third world Africa. Most of our leaders practice it simply to please the first world because it has been imposed on them. They want to appear democratic in the eyes of the first world while in their hearts, they are not ready to concede defeat (eating the cake and still have it!). They believe that being a president gives you the right to be owner of that country while the rest are just tenants. This is also fueled by the fact that some first world leaders are using our presidents as their agents to loot our wealth in exchange for guaranteeing their presidency and ill-gotten wealth. That is why it is very difficult for Africans to break the the chain poverty.
In my opinion, we need to have African version of democracy to get away with rigging problems and its consequences in terms of lives of innocent civilians. The version shall be as follows:

1. We need to have an African Electoral Commission and African Electoral Court located at AU Head Quarters. The two instruments shall be manned by competent staff picked from member states who have a record of high degree of integrity in the course of executing their duties.

2. All elections in African countries shall be conducted, coordinated and concluded by African Electoral Commission. The team from the commission will have to be formed to conduct any election in African countries. The membership of that team shall not include individuals from the country in the process of election. Each polling station shall have at least two representatives from this commission who have final authority on the conduct of the electoral process. Observers from countries outside the continent will have to be invited to witness the exercise and give their opinion on the transparency of the exercise.

3. The results of the election shall be announced by the Chairman of the African Electoral Commission at his head office, in the presence of all substantial contesters (those who got at least 5% of the votes).

4. In case of any disagreement, the complaining part shall lodge his/her complaints with African Electoral Court, which shall, within the period of six months, settle the appeal and adjudicate the case. The decision given by the court shall be final.

I believe that institutionalization of such a mechanism will, by and large, resolve the dirty processes we used to witness in Africa and increase the confidence of the people and their leaders. It will give Africans opportunity to make critical decisions affecting us through our own instruments and hence put continental interests first.

In case, you agree with this way of thinking and want to see this charted forward, please contact me via the following email- This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .

I will be happy to form a network of like-minded Africans to ensure that the above proposed mechanism is propagated and institutionalized for the benefits of our continent.

...
written by Silas , January 04, 2008

The demand for democratic rights is the new Trojan horse for a people to consistently destruction and loot. It was a big error for Kibaki to think of locating the East African Community at Kisumu, the destruction here is almost habitual a sort of hobby, have relative

...
written by Editor , January 04, 2008

Dear Silas, we are trying to fix a glitch in our system that cuts off comments at the point where dashes, apostrophes and quotation marks are inserted. Please republish your comment without these marks, Thank You.

Aketch
written by Stephen Wanyama , January 04, 2008

The first step to solving our problems will be to stop blaming Kibaki for them. Kibaki has not asked anyone to destroy their neighbourhoods. You and people like you seem to have an almost maniacal interest in domination.
Listen, Raila does not have to be president. I hope you can live with that. Nakuru is NOT burning, Mombasa is NOT burning, Garissa is NOT burning, Kitale is NOT burning, Machakos again NOT burning, Kakamega (you guessed it NOT burning). All these people were aggrieved at the elections, why are they reacting differently? The violence has NOTHING to do with the elections but with the same spirit of madness that we saw at the following events

a) Kalonzo's heckling in Mombasa
b) the madness over the Hummer
c) the countless incidents of looting and violence in Kisumu over the last 15 years
d) the countless incidents of ethnic cleansing we have seen in the Rift Valley over the last 15 years.

Again, louder this time. The violence has NOTHING to do with the dispute, the looters started BEFORE Kivuitu's announcement. The same people were causing damage in Ugenya before the election, they were causing damage in Kisumu Rural when Anyang' Nyong'o was annointed the ODM candidate, they were close to slashing Kajwang' head off, they killed Orengo's driver.

There is a need for urgent introspection. Why are we so maniacal about our politics. Go to any internet forum online, the whole year this same people have been threatening, insulting and generally acting in a violent manner towards anyone who did not toe their line. There is nothing new here.

I have lived in Kisumu too. Trust me I know.

kalutajr
written by ken , January 04, 2008

It is no arcanum the world over that every nation adopts democracy into their own governing system.
The Patronage system, for example,cannot simply wished away, esp. in Kenya and the rest of Africa where chieftains continue to exist...

Talking about integrity? Ask Kivuitu who seemed able to hold to his guns 'what happened when most people pressured him beyond what seems to have been his limits' by the look of things...

And, NO need for additional, bureaucratic bodies that are good at nothing other than plundering the already hard hit African coffers. Strengthening, restructuring and maybe replacement of the already available systems would do just fine...

Kibaki ready for a new vote?
written by Wuod Aketch , January 05, 2008

Wonders will never end!

Kenya government (read Kibaki) ready for new vote if ruled by court:
http://africa.reuters.com/coun...00881.html

I wonder whether he has any more choices i.e wonder whether he has the wherewithal to impose his conditions - but he can still bluff his supporters that he is in charge.

...
written by Njau Ndirangu , January 05, 2008

After watching Kisumu burn down, investing there will be risky business. Same applies to Eldoret; I dont think anybody wants to live in a place like that filled with so much hate and jealousy. Memories of Ukwala supermarket being looted will stay with me forever. No need to avenge any wise businessman would cut the losses and go.

Brain midgets
written by Manea , January 05, 2008

Incoherent emotional insults deleted. Ed.

Investing in ...
written by Silaha , January 05, 2008

Njau:

Unfortunately those outside the country are saying that about the whole of Kenya. On Wednesday I received an email from a person I had been long down the path of negotiating an probable investment in Kenya. She wrote:

I don't know whether it's the rollover into the new year, or seeing news items in the paper today re: continued unrest in Kenya and a possible international run on the US dollar, but it's giving me pause re: tolerance for risk. Here's what I'm thinking. I'd like to postpone our plans to take work to Kenya...

However, people do not invest because they are doing favors for you. They invest because of the returns that they expect to get. If the returns to be gained in Kisumu and Eldoret compensate for the risk then money will find its way there.

-Silaha

Annah re: Eugenics
written by ken , January 05, 2008

I'd put you in the class of people who believe that the Bell Curve is actually scientific fact rather than a racist theory and myth.

Luos, like Kikuyus, Kalenjins, etc., are not a monolith. They are individuals. Not all Luos are killing Kikuyus just as not all Kikuyus are Mungiki members.


Valid challenge indeed, so here the answer:
We have thought and briefly discussed about that before. The reason to let the post(s) stay, is that it purports to be an analysis of one specific city and its alleged collective psyche, rather than a slur against an entire ethnic group. You are correct that it is near to the line. We will we mindful. Eds.

Interesting,but I never said that its one group or the other and think that its strictly,in your OWN opinion that you call it a scientific fact.Its not to me,and I never purpoted it to be so, but a general observation about the common psyche thats prevalent in the city,which by the way, others above also happen to have made.
In as much as most people do not like stereotypes,most of the time when examined,they do come CLOSE to the average reflection of whatever subject is being discussed.
There's the INDIVIDUAL who stands above the COLLECTIVE in terms of consideration in any modern institution,theoretically at least.thats why most institutions strive to create a fair playing field by interacting with the individual and not the whole group.
On another note,I think that its all the kenyans that require an education laying emphasis on whats common amongst us and not the usual divisice points of view.Kenya as a nation is above all the individual constituent groups,though thats where it derives its power,sense of direction and purpose.
You are very misleading,I support no group and NO thank you I wouldn't like to be grouped without my consent,you seem to be living in denial.The violence in Kenya does show us what we are as Kenyans,which is something i find to be deplorable and what we're capable of doing.
Only by accepting these problems do EXIST and trying to solve them would help avoid a recurrence of similar events if we as Kenyans deem it necessary.though not through violence,THAT never gets you anywhere.

JAMES MURITU WROTE: 'Going forward, we now need to reason as Kenyans rather than Kisumu dwellers and outsiders. My home town is not Kisumu and neither am I from Nyanza; but as a patriotic Kenyan, I feel sad when Kisumu or LD are in flames, because the towns belong to Kenya and not Nyanzaians or Coastarians.'

That summarizes my post for now.

ECK has blundered twice
written by Wuod Aketch , January 05, 2008

It appears that the 16 and 16A forms required for the re-tallying will never be recovered - they have just evaporated. I had thought that these forms could have been made available for inspection by the public and the courts as Wako had suggested. Sorry comrades, regulation 42 (2) of the Presidential and Parliamentary Election laws can longer be enforced due to the non availability of these forms. I just found a sample of the contentious PNU votes on the Internet here:

Finally, Kibaki and Kivuitu have screwed Kenyans. It is this sentiment that is fueling violence. Those people at the ECK should face justice.

...
written by Okunga , January 05, 2008

What is the point of stopping the war without Kibaki stepping down??
Offensive content deleted. Ed.

...
written by Editor , January 05, 2008

The following comment was posted by a user whose name has been deleted. Ed.
To let some of you understand how foolish the residents of Kisumu have been, here is my family's experience. We own (should I say owned) a plot of land in Kisumu and had room there for rent. There were 16 of them and they housed 12 families, eight of which were actually Luo families. Although they had warned that they would take over after the election, we stayed on, hopeful.

Then came the delay in announcing of the election results, some of the youths living there broke into the homes of the non-Luo and sought to burn them. In the process the entire building caught fire, especially as there were some gas cookers in the building. The building is now cracked and must come down. My father says we cannot rebuild it, we must sell it. Before the election, a local Asian had said he was interested in it for 3.5 million. He now says he would not buy it for 50,000/-. He has lost all his business, all his little empire, he says he is moving to the UK, now for us we do not have that luxury so we will wait and see what happens. The point is, the people were burning the VERY houses they lived in simply because these belonged to Kikuyus and Kisiis and Asians.

seeds of resentment
written by talktome , January 05, 2008

"if the govt ceases to marginalize"
what do you mean?
Kisumu is your loved town why do you need to be a margin ?? develop it your self thats the answer stop looking for an excuse. everything will have to be built from your hard work, then you can be proud of it. enough of others doing it for you thats why you resent their success because you do not see them as part of you or your tribe.
start working now and call all your brothers and sisters to do the same.
next time you will have your own looting and others of your own will have to stop the looters for the seek of your town(Kisumu)because they now know the cost of building a beautiful town.
Good Luck

Eugenics
written by Annah , January 05, 2008

Ken wrote:

It has something to do with the mentality of the people residing there. I agree that education would do much to help ease the behavioural aspect, ie in the long run. short term solution would be finding a way to involve the people in constructive economical engagement. somehow tie them to the system,so that they wount be rash in their acting...

I'd put you in the class of people who believe that the Bell Curve is actually scientific fact rather than a racist theory and myth.

Luos, like Kikuyus, Kalenjins, etc., are not a monolith. They are individuals. Not all Luos are killing Kikuyus just as not all Kikuyus are Mungiki members.

I'm surprised that the editor of this site didn't censor your post and notice that the only post that has been censored is the one defending Luos, not those insulting them.

Valid challenge indeed, so here the answer:
We have thought and briefly discussed about that before. The reason to let the post(s) stay, is that it purports to be an analysis of one specific city and its alleged collective psyche, rather than a slur against an entire ethnic group. You are correct that it is near to the line. We will we mindful. Eds.

...
written by talktome , January 05, 2008

This is very serious lack of respect for lives, property and breach of peace.
Totally unacceptable whats the point of even wearing clothes???
makes your go back to the stone age.
You need very serious input otherwise you will be stuck in ths mindset and noboby can help results will be wars for generations to come.

re: Aketch
written by Wuod Aketch , January 05, 2008

The first step to solving our problems will be to stop blaming Kibaki for them. Kibaki has not asked anyone to destroy their neighbourhoods. You and people like you seem to have an almost maniacal interest in domination.
Listen, Raila does not have to be president. I hope you can live with that. Nakuru is NOT burning, Mombasa is NOT burning, Garissa is NOT burning, Kitale is NOT burning, Machakos again NOT burning, Kakamega (you guessed it NOT burning). All these people were aggrieved at the elections, why are they reacting differently? The violence has NOTHING to do with the elections but with the same spirit of madness that we saw at the following events

a) Kalonzo's heckling in Mombasa
b) the madness over the Hummer
c) the countless incidents of looting and violence in Kisumu over the last 15 years
d) the countless incidents of ethnic cleansing we have seen in the Rift Valley over the last 15 years.

Again, louder this time. The violence has NOTHING to do with the dispute, the looters started BEFORE Kivuitu's announcement. The same people were causing damage in Ugenya before the election, they were causing damage in Kisumu Rural when Anyang' Nyong'o was annointed the ODM candidate, they were close to slashing Kajwang' head off, they killed Orengo's driver.

There is a need for urgent introspection. Why are we so maniacal about our politics. Go to any internet forum online, the whole year this same people have been threatening, insulting and generally acting in a violent manner towards anyone who did not toe their line. There is nothing new here.

I have lived in Kisumu too. Trust me I know.

I respect your opinion.
What must I say to convince you that the man at state house is responsible for Kenyans' recent woes? Chaos is all over the country. Roads are blocked, no petrol and worse of all we now have our own internal refugees. There is a human disaster building up.
Kenya instability crisis grows -

I lost trust in Kibaki when he named a new chief justice under the table and swore himself president at state house after having stolen the elections.
Kibaki has also used state means for personal gains - like dividing some constituencies to form new ones. But even this did not save him the ridicule of being beaten by the opposition.
In this VDO these people are marching peacefully to Uhuru park - look, who is harassing them? They say they will die for their rights!!!
Kenya: Kibaki 'open to talks'

re: Investing in ...
written by manta ray , January 05, 2008

Njau:

Unfortunately those outside the country are saying that about the whole of Kenya. On Wednesday I received an email from a person I had been long down the path of negotiating an probable investment in Kenya. She wrote:

I don't know whether it's the rollover into the new year, or seeing news items in the paper today re: continued unrest in Kenya and a possible international run on the US dollar, but it's giving me pause re: tolerance for risk. Here's what I'm thinking. I'd like to postpone our plans to take work to Kenya...

However, people do not invest because they are doing favors for you. They invest because of the returns that they expect to get. If the returns to be gained in Kisumu and Eldoret compensate for the risk then money will find its way there.

-Silaha

The people who invest in a country are first and foremost its own citizens. Foreigners will come to towns like Mombasa, Malindi and Nairobi but not Kisumu or Eldoret. Those towns will be shunned like the plague by the local mercantile class, whether Kikuyu, Kisii or Asian, until there is irrefutable evidence that the risk is worth it. I do not see that happening for at least two to three years down the line. Only a fool would risk investment in those towns in the immediate future.

...
written by Masaa , January 05, 2008

those guys in kisumu and Eldoret should be left a while for the moment to feel the pinch of their actions. Experience is the best teacher and they must start to learn to respect private property and use reason above hate.
Only by them feeling the pinch will they realise they will only get to see the politicians once in 5 years when the solicit for votes unlike their neighbour with whom they lived and traded with.

Investing in Kenya
written by Wuod Aketch , January 05, 2008

Despite the political fragility that our country has shown, I will continue investing in my country. I believe that fellow Kenyans on the ground will be able to find solutions to the present problem.
I encourage you all not to sleep wherever you are but to try to develop something back home, however small, if you can. Nobody will develop Kenya in our place.

re:
written by Kay , January 05, 2008

Talking of the damage in Kisumu, let me explain a scenario that might take place:
For the Kikuyus, Kisiis and Asians whose businesses were burned, the chaps will claim insurance, sell whatever property they had in Kisumu and retreat to safer areas. For the Asians, most likely they will head to UK, Canada or Australia. Raila will drive to town and be cheered wildly promising more milk and honey. The joy is temporary as reality bites hard and fast. Poverty levels rise. People get more desparate. Then complaints start rocking in: "Our region is being neglected!"
This is the more reason people need to think before they act.

I agree and its such a shame....and even though I am re-locating myself, I will still do what I can to help build this city

You can take the villager out
written by mshangaaa , January 06, 2008

..you cant take the village out of the villager. You would wish to think that the ethnic divide outlined in the media is an error on their part. Perhaps blame it on the illiteracy of the poor kenyan living in the slums. But for that to travel several thousand miles into America is something else. My friend had some guy with an unmistakable Kisii accent calling himself "Joseph Onyango" call her cell phone and question her abuot her ethnicity. In America. Someone tell me we dont have such idiots here. Please!

...
written by Mwambu , January 06, 2008

Stephen Wanyama, your ignorance astounds me. However what happened in Kisumu does not astound me at all- typical human nature.

Wanyama, I am not sure if you have heard of the Boston Red Sox, Chicago Bears or the Detroit Tigers. The fans of these teams, regardless of whether they have won or lost a championship, have a penchant to riot, vandalize and destroy prpoerty. Ditto the fans of many European soccer clubs.

Allow me to address the many other shallow comments that abound here. I would analyze the situation in Kisumu from the perspective that, yes, it is a crisis, but I would then also figure out how I could generate better outcomes in the future.

From my perspective, the most important and necessary thing here is/are ideas; far too often false ideas have trumped correct ideas. Equally as important is whether there are people capable of implementing ideas when the opportunity arises- which it has. That is where the newly elected Kisumu leadership comes in- the Shabirs, Olago Aluochs, etc.

The current problems faced by the citizens of Kisumu are not intractable. As I said, the problem has been a function of ideas- false ideas among the locals (we are not good at doing business yada yada yada). This is purely a mental block, cultural indifference to business and the profit motive, or ennui.

Out of this crises can emerge important home grown solutions with Kisumu citizens as genuine stakeholders.

re:
written by Wuod Aketch , January 06, 2008

those guys in kisumu and Eldoret should be left a while for the moment to feel the pinch of their actions. Experience is the best teacher and they must start to learn to respect private property and use reason above hate.
Only by them feeling the pinch will they realise they will only get to see the politicians once in 5 years when the solicit for votes unlike their neighbour with whom they lived and traded with.

Please stop being shallow minded, this kind of reasoning only fans the fire of hatred. There are other Kenyans who are already feeling the pinch - they are more hard hit than those people in Kisumu, who after all have better perspectives - as usual, without help from the government. Read here:

Kenya's new refugees take stock of their losses: http://africa.reuters.com/coun...34861.html

Until a few days ago, Paul Kariuki had only seen refugees of African conflicts on television - it never occurred to the Kenyan small trader that he might one day become one.

"It's my first time to be a refugee. I can't quite believe it," he said, as he left a queue for maize handouts he could not have imagined needing before this week.

"I feel humiliated," he added, adjusting the collar on his smart, blue fleece jacket. "I had money, I had children in secondary school, I was selling milk and wheat to the market. Now I've got nothing because they burned it all."

...
written by James Muritu , January 06, 2008

Fellow Kenyans,

Yesterday I had a very long chat with a collegue and fellow Kenyan. We acknowledged that Kenyans have spent more time blogging in the last couple of days than ever before (not a bad thing). We acknowledged that Kenyans have been talking talking talking politics for the last ...., God knows how long.

Thinking rationally is now more crucial. For once let's put aside the political debates and map a way forward that will guarantee a better future for every Kenyan (in Kenya and diaspora). Let's engage in strategies and actions, that will endeavour to heal and rejuvinate what has been killed by our selfish politicians.

Let's forget for once, that as a Kikuyu, Kibaki doesn't know you and will never ever visit your house;as a Luo, neither will Raila ever pay your rent come end month or take your kids to school.

However, irrespective of what tribe you are, there are more chances that you will cross paths more often with your neighbour who might not be from your tribe. You will meet in traffic jams, lifts,malls and even in the streets.

Identifying this is imperative and working towards ensuring ignoring politicians as our masters is even more paramount. Fellow Kenyan, brother and sister, wherever you are, think,talk and discuss issues that will promote and advance Kenyanism rather than Luoism, Kikuyuism or whatever other crap there is.

Well said
written by Kay , January 06, 2008

Very Well said, that last comment...

...
written by emmo opoti , January 06, 2008

From Phillip Ochieng in today's paper.

I can understand your anger. But to understand is not to condone. I cannot condone your bid to wreak revenge on the wrong person. Those who have plunged our country into this humanitarian catastrophe — the Electoral Commission of Kenya — have practically admitted it.

But, even without such a mea culpa, all intelligent persons knew that, if anybody criminally interfered with the ECK, it could only be a few individuals with political clout. In short, if there was any vote rip-off, you could not blame it on the Kikuyu, Embu and Meru.

It should be obvious that, in their millions, these so-called Gema people did not – indeed, cannot – sneak into any Government redoubt at night to participate in such a heinous crime.

That is why I say that, if you have personally attacked a Kikuyu or Meru at any urban centre, then you have misdirected your anger. By hitting the wrong target, you have wasted your political energy completely.

If you have killed any Kenyan on account of his ethnic identity with the individuals who may have stolen your votes — if you have burnt his house or looted his shop — you have committed an unspeakable crime against a compatriot who has nothing whatsoever to do with your political agony.

And what you have done is completely futile. For elementary logic tells me that, if the Government is your pet-peeve, then it is against the Government that you should vent your anger using any one of what our newspaper correspondents call “crude weapons”.

For the “mere” fact that you have killed a Kikuyu or two in Kapenguria or looted a Meru shop or two at Kendu Bay will not affect the Government in any way whatsoever. A modicum of intelligence should tell you that your onslaughts on Gema individuals cannot hurt any Government interest.

The incivilities and barbarisms with which you have treated your Gema compatriots at Awendo, Eldama Ravine, Garissa, Homa Bay, Kapsabet, Kericho, Kisii, Koibatek, Lamu, Mbita, Mumias, Ngong, Siaya, Wundanyi and other trading centres has only revealed you as a despicable political Neanderthal.

Exactly what gain — political or otherwise — can a man make by setting fire on a church and killing 50 Kenyan children, cherubs who have no idea as yet what it means to be a Kikuyu or a Luo? What anthropological primitivism is this? How can we tolerate such mind-boggling cruelty in our midst?

On the contrary, at least in the short run, our Neanderthal can succeed only in strengthening the official resolve to do what the Government — any government — knows best, namely, to quell the anarchy with all brawn. And, in the circumstances, no Kenyan of feeling and thought will blame the Government.

Fully agree with Phillip Ochie
written by Sam Odari , January 06, 2008

I read Phillip Ochieng's article with great interest. Phillip, you have hit the nail on the head. The insanity of hiding violence behind the curtain of political affiliation is inexcusable, intolerable, savage and barbaric. Kenya is for all irrespective of our ethnicity. So, regionalising Kenya for political mileage and using violence as a means to achieve this is utterly crude. The wound this mentality has created in the society will take great courage and strength and let me add many years to heal irrespective of whichever government takes over. Why create the wound in the first place? Foolish, elementary mentality isn't it?

fully agree with Phillip Ochie
written by anthony m nderitu , January 06, 2008

There are those who think with their heads on the their shoulders like Phillip Ochieng. good for you man, you have hit the nail on the head. We need to work out what is wrong with us in Kenya.
It is such a hard time for politicians like Raila and his pentago to condemn violence on the electorate yet they mind the votes from the very voters whose plight they ignore. If Raila had a straight and well-mannered social consicience, he would have sold his hummer(unless it forms part of his ego), support the displaced families and condemn violence in his name unequivocally. this will earn him a very dear place in the hearts of those who are tempted to hate him as a source of violence. He will earn place he has missed for so long, being a statesman and not an empty shell of a politician like we have in the rest of the body politic in Kenya.
We need to kill the collective ethnic mentality that we have cultivated and held on to for so long that we only produce chalice that is quickly killing us. We need to cultivate a collective mentality of what it means to be Kenyan first and ethnic later for cultural enrichment and exportation to the rest of humanity, not for fighting amongst ourselves.
God bless Kenya and uwe nguvu yetu siku zote. Haki na iwe ngao na ulinzi, but first, may we have love for humanity and not structures.

Nderitu
written by Kieno , January 06, 2008

(To Anthony Nderitu)
Cut the gris gris. The hummer talk is a little too low to stoop.

How about we ask Kibaki and Co. to return part of the loot so we support the displaced, he might get the other 6 provinces to like him after all. We are not asking for his personal cars, or even that he stops providing bodyguards for his mistress..which still cost the tax payer.

Seriously, your take above was very juvenile.

Repetition edited. Ed.

Where\'s the mainstream media
written by Mutua Kioko , January 07, 2008

Guys, do you have this feeling that the Kenya media has back slidden with regard to giving us updated news on the current situation in Kenya. Am surprised that no mainstream paper is coming out in the open to highlight what's really happening in Kisumu. Ive even heard that UG troops are in Kisumu. I should congratulate the work being done by Kenyaimagine and the other sites.

I came across a very interesting site that seems to have hour by hour updates on the Kenya situation. There seems to be content also on how the world is reactin to the situation. Check it out at http://www.runboard.com/bongasasa. It's definitely worth looking at.

Meanwhile may Kenyaimagine keep the discussions flowing

Media Mainstream
written by Python. Gachango , January 07, 2008

I totally agree with Mutua kioko!!

Kenyan media is a devil that needs to be contained. The lack of ethics to control the content to be aired is a loophole in our constitution. The fueling of the violence we witnessed was media making. Kenyans need peace journalists not just news for the sake of it. Ask yourself: in Kisumu were journalists going to cover buildings and cars being burnt, or were cars and buildings burnt because journalist were there. Shame on them!!

Showing us Raila inspecting the dead in the city mortuary should be condemned with strongest terms!! What value does it add to mourning Kenyans. If this was not incitement of highest order, what is it then. What prove have you, that what we saw were clashes' victims, or strategically placed bodies just to fuel more massacre and mass execution of rival tribes. Think twice!!

Edited for proper spelling and grammar. Ed.

Keino
written by anthony nderitu , January 07, 2008

Kenya needs a statesman and stateswoman. for now it does not have any.

I wish you well.

Edited

...
written by a guest , January 08, 2008

Ochieng' is wrong. This is not neighbor turning against neighbor. This is about defining who a Kenyan is; forging a united Kenya where one group can no longer assume to be the select-group.

Look at any country's history (England, France, USA, Russia, China, Mozambique, Angola), and you will note that the path to change and resolution of the most intransigent national problems can only be accomplished by paying a high price- including neighbor turning against neighbor.

Rest assured that Kibaki or any other future dictator will ill-afford to steal an election or take Kenyans for granted.

BLOOD IS NOT A PATH TO CHANGE
written by James Muritu , January 08, 2008

Mr. Anoynymous,

- Sacrifices can be made by other means by not by shedding blood.
- A high price can be paid, but not by shedding innocent blood.
- Lessons can be learnt in history but not by shedding blood

Do everything else you can, but not shed blood. Thats a taboo and God forbid.

...
written by James Muritu , January 08, 2008

Mutua,
For your info, am the one who initiated http://runboard.com/bongasasa and my aim is to circumvent the negativity being created on Kenya by the international media. As much as Kenya has had fracas, there are some good things happenning and thats what am trying to highlight in this site. If we dont fight for our country on the international scene, nobody else will do so. Stand tall and be proud to be called a Kenyan

Jobless
written by Amir Ibrahim , January 08, 2008

Hundreds jobless after chaos
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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By Harold Ayodo
Hundreds of Kisumu residents were in for a rude shock when they turned up for duty only to find their workstations either looted or razed.
Helplessness yesterday gripped employees at the Central Business District (CBD) here arsonists set ablaze up to 15 premises as post-election chaos rocked the lakeside town.

Employees of three supermarkets and several other shops fought back tears as they surveyed the ruins of what was once their source of livelihood.

Mr Anthony Jerome, a businessman,was among those counting their losses after his shop was reduced to ashes during the post election skirmishes that hit the town.
"My business had picked up well, but now it is no more," Jerome said.

Mrs Ida Odinga-wife to ODM leader,Raila Odinga-was at the weekend shocked by the wanton destruction of property during a tour of the town.

"I cannot believe this is Kisumu!How long would it take to resurrect this once vibrant town that was a business hub in East Africa?" she posed.

Workers of several organisations gathered in groups at the CBD as they sought the way forward. Employees of Ukwala Supermarket along Oginga Odinga Street that was looted before it went up in smoke watched in disbelief as other workers removed debris from the razed premise. Port Florence Hospital situated at Wedco Centre was also reduced to ashes as several other premises in the area were looted and vandalized.

There were queues of up to two kms banks from as early as 6am as some Automated Teller Machines (ATMs) were out of order.

Mr Evans Bolo said he resolved to close his account at Equity Bank arguing there were several uncertainties and rumours about the future.

" It's better if I closed my account and bought food to stock in the house," Bolo said.

Ms Lillian Onam woke up early to withdraw money from the ATM at Co-operative Bank in town but the line was too long.

"I am almost giving up. I have been here for too long and I wanted to withdraw money and book a bus to Nairobi. I have to report to work,"
Lillian said.

Mrs S Arora who is the proprietor of Stationery Arcade said residents were not interested in purchasing stationery at the bookshop.

"I am lucky that my bookshop was not looted but sad of the unfolding events. People are not interested in buying books but food, which is scarce," Arora said.

Mr Raphael Juma, a boda boda operator said he had not made his usual Sh300 per day since the post election chaos rocked Kisumu.

"Most of our customers fled to their rural areas, while others are either admitted with bullet wounds or dead following the chaos," Juma said.

...
written by kisumuman , January 10, 2008

Edited.

...
written by kisumuman , January 10, 2008

Edited

On His Majesty\'s Command
written by Ngure Kamigwi , January 14, 2008

On His Majesty's Command

(Slurs deleted. Ed.)

The British nearly extinguished the Kikuyus by uprooting them from their Homes, killing milions and imprisoning others in villages. Yet the Kikuyus rose to rebuild their lives. (...)

Their "King" says Kikuyu is the problem but until they realise their problem and fix it the will remain in the same situation for a long time.

Githunguri Dairy for instance is giving the people of githunguri Kshs 150M every month in milk sales. If you keep a cow in Kisumu it cannot eat grass

...
written by NGANGA , January 22, 2008

While some people see a tribal element in the destruction to me Luos are not bad, Kikuyu are not bad. The high voltage politic that was played before the December 27 general election is to blame. In particular the two leading political parties never spared a chance to tell their enthusiastic followers that they can loose the election. No safety valves were put to cushion voters on such an eventuality. When the day of reckoning came the news of a defeat was like thunderbolts. Had any one cared to put our citizen on notice that a win is a win for entire country destruction of property loss of human life, eviction of a certain ethnic community could not have happened. What we are now witnessing is like a new breed of crooks not because they are poor but because anarchy is what they want. High turn out of nominee for the parliamentary seat for ODM and PNU parties is also to blame. While PNU crafted for an option for the losers in the primaries to vie on PNU friendly parties ODM promised the losers jobs in the government once they come to power. The result, the promised went to campaign for the party unaware that voter for the party were to come from a distinctive number of its supporters and the numbers could not have improved by the campaigning. They exhausted the ODM vote rich ground and started following the incumbent wherever he made a pitch. After the election and the reality being that the party is not near statehouse lease of tenancy documents, excuses and looting with destruction of property to erase their footmarks is the order of the day. The leadership of ODM has to come out clearly and tell their supporters THE TRUTH that even if there is poverty looting of other people is not the way out but working hard and applying ones brain in a positive way. Being able to clearly see were your potential is and seeing the bigger picture of opportunities that are coming. The majimbo that were promised are not the panacea to poverty because even in developed countries that practice federalism there are poor people .Many are stealing for the sake of stealing, not for political gain and to satisfy the long held belief that a majority of certain community are well to do because they stole. The truth of the matter is that they are naturally enterprising and eviction from certain region will only serve as an eye opener to better potential area in the world. today there rumors that though their properties have been destroyed they are laughing to watching how their tormentor can be low thinking to destroy the very place they work and show up after two weeks to work
"It is tragic, it is wrong, but what do you do when you cannot provide political, economical and social guidance for your supporters? From whichever direction one approaches it, Kisumu is a city in ruins. From the city centre through the industrial main road and the usually bustling Kondele, Kisumu is an eyesore.
Protestors stormed the town in fury, burning buildings and stealing.
Looters broke into banks and destroyed ATM machines, three supermarkets, rice go down, and other buildings in the town centre.
The looters marched from one shop to the other, breaking display windows and doors with metal bars.
At 3pm, a day before New Year

...
written by Kenyan , January 24, 2008

We have swept the ethnic debate under the rug for too long my brothers and sisters. It is now time for us ALL to openly, without malice, and address what we are seeing in our beautiful country. It is an effort that needs to be made as an individual.Let us not rely on politicians.Let us introduce debate and discussion about our ethnicity in classrooms, in church, at the work place and let us all embrace our diversity and use it as a building block for rebuilding what we had.
Find it within your hearts and minds to forgive. This is for the sake of our children and theri children after that. For heavens sake, let us stop the madness!!