About time
written by Nekessa , May 16, 2007

Studies over time have shown that second hand smoking is harmful to non-smokers. A few years ago, I worked at my uni daycare, and I was dismayed when everyday this toddler who could barely talk came in everyday smelling of smoke. Both his parents were heavy smokers, tsk tsk.

Anyway, smoking is an individual choice, albeit a harmful one. As a result, it only makes sense that that choice remains yours as the smokers, so smokers should smoke in their private places. Smoking in public infringes on my personal rights.

In many places the argument against this has been that business will lose money from their smoking customers.

I am proud of this progressive move by Nakuru. How shall it be enforced, I wonder?

...
written by aeichener , May 16, 2007

Unimplementable.

re: About time
written by aeichener , May 16, 2007

Smoking in public infringes on my personal rights.

No. It does not.

Smoking in *your space* infringes upon your rights. That may mean your workplace or your train compartment. It does not mean "public space".

A.

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written by Karis , May 16, 2007

First of all, Nakuru's ban is unenforcable. Second thing. Kenyans should think clearly before they continue with these games. Tobacco and tobacco companies put clothes on many people's backs and food on many Kenya tables.

burn all smokers
written by emmo opoti , May 16, 2007

I thought I would be first to this thread! Now there's four comments already!

The trouble with Nakuru's ban is that it is unenforceable. Sometimes though just such measures need to be put in place to shift the public's perception of this disgusting habit.

Alex,
That is pretty rich. You do not think A's smoking harms B? The space may not be B's personally, but it is B's as a member of the public. It is shared space. Hence it is morally wrong for anyone to do anything within that space that would harm others.

Concept. 'Our'.

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written by aeichener , May 16, 2007

Hence it is morally wrong for anyone to do anything within that space that would harm others.

Wow. You have understood me, it appears. The paraphrase seems correct.

my apartment
written by Nekessa , May 17, 2007

I live in an apartment complex, a few weeks ago we got new neighbors. One of them smokes, but she is not allowed to smoke in the house, so she smokes on their balcony (porch). Unfortunately, I now cannot have my windows open because the smoke flows into my apartment.

My space? Her space?

...
written by aeichener , May 17, 2007

Hers, in principle. So, only close your windows when she goes out smoking.

A.

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written by Stephen Wanyama , May 17, 2007

Suicide is illegal in most places. I know some mad hatters like Emmo do not think it is illegal, still my take on smoking is a total ban. The government cannot allow people to consume poison.

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written by Half n Half , May 17, 2007

I smoke! Yes but I think other people should be protected from my smoke! but I do agree that tobbacco companies employ many people!
However stephen, suicide is illegal Yes! so then lets ban, sex, kenchick, nandos, driving, alcohol need I go on?

going up in smoke
written by jayawardene , May 17, 2007

Wonderful! about time too. As a recovering smokaholic and one who has smoked many things including tobacco I welcome the ban on smoking in all public places.

It is an absolute disgrace that with all the knowledge that we have today about 2nd hand smoke that it is still legal for clown 'A' to puff away in a crowded room and expose danger willy nilly bearing in mind that some people are more highly susceptible to respiratory conditions than others.

Let us not be so quick to put up our hands and say "unenforcable" you can achieve anything that you set your mind to. If it was indeed unenforcable Cinema halls, airlines, restaurants and other institutions that led the way all those many years back in going smoke free, would be all history. Similarly, I am not moved by the arguments of tobacco farmers and their dependents. When one door closes many more are opened.

Nakuru, you are truly first amongst equals. May the other towns and cities quickly follow your lead and allow their citizens to once again breath easy.....

about time
written by nduta , May 17, 2007

smoking in public should be banned,kabisa.Totally agree with jaya wardene.

Thumbs up to Nakuru

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written by Amir Ibrahim , May 17, 2007

The best way to enforce a ban on smoking is to punish smokers where it hurts. In the pocket. If a packet of Rooster or Star was retailing for 200/-, or even 400/- then maybe people would think twice before they went inhaling carcinogens.

And the rest of us may get some money to pay for better healthcare. Maybe even the universal plan advocated by Ngilu.
P.S Hats off to Ngilu, a hardworking visionary.

...
written by donworry , May 17, 2007

I must have visited all the dens of iniquity that poor Jayawedene went to and so I too support the wise people of Nakuru and wish them well.

Mr Ibrahim, kind man, no doubt, sounds like a born again, clean living, evangelist soul as displayed by his ignorance of addiction issues. Even if you price Baccy at 1000kshs, there will be smokers. You also risk opening up the market to contraband and shady operators like u-know-who; what ever happened to those murder cases, btw

I believe in the education and reward strategy. Do not condemn lowly paid smokers some of whom can only afford this one vice to further poverty.

...
written by Amir Ibrahim , May 17, 2007

Not born again,Don. But something has to be done, seems to me already very selfish that anyone poor should spend so much of their income on inhaling poison and causing future grief and expense to their family.
But who to mastermind this overhaul? Our political class, cravenly beholden to money? Remember that coastal retreat anyone?

contraband
written by Amir Ibrahim , May 17, 2007

Well, so be it then. The biggest problem with tobacco and smoking is that most people do not think it is wrong at all. I would say it is far better to have an underground trade, with smuggling and everything but at least then we are teaching children that it is wrong to smoke the tobacco.
Marijuana is widely available in Kenya, and just as 'harmless' as tobacco. However, because public attitudes towards it are so strident, only a few of our people are addicted to it, and only very few of us have to deal with the effects of the smoke.

Stick to Subject
written by That Kenyan Loser , May 17, 2007

The question here is not if Nakuru's ban will be enforced or not, but if smoking should outlawed or not.

I'm always fascinated by how contradictory Africans are. We want our governments to develop like the West but don't want to do anything to achieve that goal.

Why should Phillip Morris obey anti-smoking laws in California but fight them in Kenya? Are Kenyans any less of humans than the people of California? Unfortunately, some of us think so.

Nakuru sets a trend that is much needed in Kenya. Cities and towns must take control from the national government to prosper. What you see here is a community's attempt to decide its own destiny.

Enforceable or not, is not the question.

...
written by don , May 17, 2007

Soon the only place to smoke will be the moon.

Kudos to Nakuru, they can start enforcing this one as soon as they are done with Mungiki, carjacking etc.

The the aparment complex guy/gal. The balcony is still part of the building last I checked. You can talk the "landlord"

re:Stick to Subject
written by Savco , May 17, 2007

I totally agree with That Kenyan Loser. Nakuru has demonstrated that a community doesn't need to wait for bunge or central govt to act in its own best interests ie. improve its residents quality of life.

These tobacco multinationals are besieged in the West. They are bound to be looking for new growth areas - namely the developing world. So should we sit back hopelessly and pray to god to punish them? Or should we preempt them and put the necessary legislation before they get a stranglehold over us?

re: don\'t think so
written by Nekessa , May 18, 2007

Hers, in principle. So, only close your windows when she goes out smoking.

A.

he the apartment complex guy/gal. The balcony is still part of the building last I checked. You can talk the "landlord"

It's my space. Heard of neighborhood disturbance? When your neighbor is playing loud music? Same thing.

Tim, lol, the point is I need the fresh breeze not febreeze. I want my windows open

coast retreat
written by nduta , May 18, 2007

Amir ibrahim:i do remember that coastal retreat,i was just about to breath when i heard of the retreat i knew that bill will not pass.

well well
written by pndiangui , May 18, 2007

I will dwell from the most controversial of all; That the 'sticks' manufacturing companies cloth our rural folks delivering the raw material (farmers) and the Urban dwellers (accountants , HR , sales people) working for them. I say nonsense.

Did the nascent, 18th century Agricultural-based economy driven by cheap even non-paid/free labour in American halt because the English banned slave trade? Hello no! So we 'cloth' those few farmers and the urbane workers while the tax-payer is left to buy highly expensive drugs, hospital space and care for Lung-cancer and other airborne diseases sufferers among the public (including non-smokers who inhale the causitive agent from smokers in public places). The cost down-stream to me can't compare with the so called 'Kenyan cigarete economy' mainly in Nyanza, Meru and Nairobi.

Its both morally wrong and against the natural principles that govern humanism as is the cost associated with the habit to the exchequer. An opportunity cost if we put, to serve other demanding and less self-inflicted medical cases. You see the problem with many of us, is a failure due to utter laziness or ignorance to get into the roots and understand the principles that govern every economy. If it is not built on sustainable value , then the rest of the PR is cosmetic and the masses and the companies involved are just post-poning 'the day of reckoning' and they will all incure the costs even in a larger scale, downstream.

In the 'West economies' high fastfood consumption is already starting to be seen from this lense. Obesity , diabetes and strokes costs to the exchequer will just force these governments to introduce a higher tax on high fat content processed food or prepare to be hit with massive health-care bills of a generation raised and addicted to the high fat content diets. This possibility has already caused Mc-donalds to start shifting its strategy changing its meals offerings and even getting Heart disease organisations to offer independent advise and scores their newly introduced meals effects on health.

A movement towards a smokes-free Kenya might just make BAT re-think its business strategy and infact its core purpose of existense in the society (Businesses dont exist to just make a profit, there has to be a higher purpose than that, and profit making is just a bonus resulting from the 'society's aprreciation' of the value offerred). It doesnt have to shut down , but it can leverage on its strong balance sheet and operational networks to make say these regions that it operates take advantages of emerging opportunities globally.

In kenya for example BAT can help the farmers in those regions start moving towards being Bio-fuels producers or high-value added horticultural producers or value-add other plants extractions like pyrethrum or Gums in North Eatern province etc. There are many many opportunities out there that align with true-value to the society acording to the current and emerging social dynamics and scientific evidence which are great movers of what the society percieves as valuable or that is acutally valuable.

Any resistant by the society or these firms to move towards a win-win proposition will end up hurting both of them. And that is where the Momabasa Seminar organised by BAT for MP's to counter Ngilu's Bill for a movement towards a smoke-free country, is counter-productive even to BAT's future itself.

Mcdonalds has just proved how society dynamics and new scientific evidence that disapprove past behaviours and practices can be used to its advantage by focussing on offerring true-value to the society, hence making change spontanous and possible.

The point is; Globally time is up for smokers and 'sticks' making companies. In Kenya, Nakuru is just but the beginning.

Balancing interests
written by aeichener , May 18, 2007

Hers, in principle. So, only close your windows when she goes out smoking.

It's my space. Heard of neighborhood disturbance? When your neighbor is playing loud music? Same thing.

That is a very good and valid comparison. It shows exactly the point, the practical point as well as the legal point.
And thus it shows exactly inhowfar you are wrong.

Alexander

smoking is hot!
written by Timothy Wainaina , May 19, 2007

A short run-through the commenters. Wapinzani are smokers I am sure. Those people who have tried desperately to quit but cannot, nicotide, chewing gum, arm-patches, etc. Odd, for they should be positively ecstatic!Then there's another group like Nekessa who could do with a bit of Febreze and a stretch to shut her windows when the neighbour suffers some cravings. Was watching Bordertown the movie recently. For no reason at all, Jlo or whatever it is she is now called, lit up on screen. Really, does one have to smoke to think?

My thoughts? Well, I have an allergy to smoke. Kohozi mkombozi!

Mr.
written by simba , May 19, 2007

Good ridence. Tobacco campanies are now up in arms. Nakuru residents sshould go after bill boards and ather adds on the streets. Smoking kills and the facts are out on the open. Kudos Nakuru.

...
written by noel , May 19, 2007

Lets hope it holds for long!! The government tried to enforce this in Nairobi for a while and picked people up for violation. It was short-lived though and smokers have gone back to their old ways. I feel it is very insensitive for people to be for instance walking through a pavement and sharing their smoke with everyone behind them. I wish the government could hold on to their idea of banning smoking in public areas. No one wants second hand smoke. The fact that we do not smoke shows we are not interested and do not need to have any free samples!!

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written by aeichener , May 19, 2007

Noel, you are trying to ridicule the anti-smoker crusaders through a reductio ad absurdum. I certainly agree with you that such a position would be ridiculous exactly through its sanctimonious exaggeration.
But there is a valid core in it. This valid core would pertain to most necessarily shared closed spaces; such a train compartments, matatus, in fact public transportation in general. Then, the workspace that one shares with non-smokers, and also public waiting-rooms, elevators and comparable spaces.

Restaurants and bars are problematic. While it is appreciable that smokers are tolerant of people eating while they smoke, and while everybody can avoid a miasmatic restaurant or bar, there still are the suffering workers there. Maybe one must differentiate between a restaurant and a drinking den / bar etc.

Alexander

Give BAT a break, will\'ya?
written by Honey , May 21, 2007

Facts:

Smoking is a choice, one is warned of its dangers.

Tobacco supports a whooping 30% Kenyans, and 80% of the juakali sector.

There is no theory so far of how second hand smoke damages people.

Kenya is dancing to the whims of WHO.

Kenyans have more serious killers among them, comapred to astick of tobacco.

Some smokers outlive non-smokers. Whie at it, too much pollution out there in Kenya.

Of western countries, msidanganywe, in the Carolinas, USA, tobacco is so cheap that some arab kids were taking truckloads to other states, supporting terrorist activities. I.E in this states, it supports the people, and no one says a damn thing about it!

Sigara haiuwi wakenya.

BAT is among the 3 best employers in Kenya.

Kenyan Priorities
written by aeichener , May 21, 2007

re: Give BAT a break, will\'y
written by Nekessa , May 21, 2007

Facts:

Smoking is a choice, one is warned of its dangers.

Tobacco supports a whooping 30% Kenyans, and 80% of the juakali sector.

There is no theory so far of how second hand smoke damages people.

Kenya is dancing to the whims of WHO.

Kenyans have more serious killers among them, comapred to astick of tobacco.

Some smokers outlive non-smokers. Whie at it, too much pollution out there in Kenya.

Of western countries, msidanganywe, in the Carolinas, USA, tobacco is so cheap that some arab kids were taking truckloads to other states, supporting terrorist activities. I.E in this states, it supports the people, and no one says a damn thing about it!

Sigara haiuwi wakenya.

BAT is among the 3 best employers in Kenya.

There is no denying that smoking is an option, as there has been no ban on smoking! The ban is on public smoking. Recent medical studies, yes in the US, show that second hand smoking is dangerous. With or without the Surgeon General's report, there is no doubt that second hand smoking is harmful.

In a report released last year (will google it) Richard Carmon, the Surgeon General, released a report showing, yes, conclusive and massive evidence that second hand smoking can cause the following: lung cancer, heart disease and sudden infant death syndrome.

Some cities in Minnesota have banned smoking in public, and the overwhelming response before the ban was the loss of business for, esp, restaurants and bars.

Arguing that smokers can outlive nonsmokers is hardly a valid point, but then again the question here is not whether one should smoke or not.

re: re: Give BAT a break, wil
written by aeichener , May 21, 2007

The ban is on public smoking. (...) there is no doubt that second hand smoking is harmful.

Public smoking =|= second hand smoking.

Alexander

Surgeon General\'s report
written by Nekessa , May 21, 2007

here goes: The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General . Lots of material to read and learn

...
written by a guest , June 01, 2007

Charles Mbui- a familiar name, but it is a while now, slaved for BAT as a teenager, can no longer put what face on whom!

I know a number of people were shown the door for accusations that involved misappropriation of funds, tabia mbaya kikazi, especially the finance & Marketing guys. Lots of them got kicked out - e.g the frontdesk gentleman at Kisumu Agakhan hospital was once a top-gun finance guy in BAT.

It might just be true about Charles. But will find out very soon.

Hey, don't sue me Mister (Oddy).

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written by Honey , June 01, 2007

Nekessa,

Angalia hiyo katuni very well put by Alex, then lets talk more of pollution.

The way I see it, pollution will be with us for a while, why don't we be realistic kidogo.

Has any one produced stats of cigarette deaths? In Africa, tobacco is a crucial thing economically, the positives outweigh the negative by far.

Are we willing to send so many people to poverty, on issues that can be debated on till the cows come home.

Second, I now desire that you google DDT, the one chemical that WHO is willing to allow rain on Kenyans (eradicate mosquitoes) despite massive evidence of its deadly side effects (makes tobacco sound like body candy) and yo'll activitists are just keeping nyiri..eeh?

DDT
written by Nekessa , June 01, 2007

Second, I now desire that you Google DDT, the one chemical that WHO is willing to allow rain on Kenyans (eradicate mosquitoes) despite massive evidence of its deadly side effects (makes tobacco sound like body candy) and yo'll activists are just keeping nyiri..eeh?

Honey, DDT is a whole other topic which we can discuss in due time. One social ill does not negate another!!

...
written by Honey , June 02, 2007

Yeah, u right about social ills, but I still insist there are worse social ills than Cigarette puffing.

Stop for a minute, we all hope for Kenya to achieve a progress whose magnitude can be compared to the Ist world.

The developed world did not get there by employing the 'good deed' social awareness tactics.

Instead, there was massive human rights abuse, extensive environment pollution...then looong after the results were all good, and they could afford to sit and worry, they embraced this 'lets make the world a better place' bs.

Truth is, I do not know of any developed place with no sinister past. Something gotta give!

This is how it works: I discover a very important component that is so urgently needed, ignore studies on its environmental effects, massively produce to get maximum profit, then after that, consider complains raised from my products' use, and sluggishly start addressing them. Pretty much, leave it to the rest and I move to another project. Africa gets caught up here, missing on the profits, but having the red tape on what can and cannot be done about it. Meanwhile, the west is on something else busy pouring it out there.

BAT ?
written by aeichener , June 15, 2007

Honey: is it true that the worldwide notorious and ridiculed General Manager of Sales & Marketing of KTDA, Charles Mbui, is a toxic waste deposit (or drop-out) either from BAT or from Mastermind Tobacco, as rumour has it?

Alexander