Kibz & Ojinga to meet in the n
written by magothe , January 24, 2008

Apparently the aborted meeting is about to happen @ Harambee Hse very soon.
Maybe to sign an agreement...

Meeting confirmed
written by magothe , January 24, 2008

Reuters confirm Raila-Kibaki meeting

...
written by Kamale , January 24, 2008

Well the meeting took place and only three people were in that room; Annan, President Kibaki and Hon. Raila. All the aides were left out of the meeting.

When they came out, they both read prepared speeches. Raila and Annan used the "raia" microphones whilst Kibaki who nearly used the same microphones was quickly pushed to read from his presidential rostrum. The order of the speeches was Anna, Raila and finally Kibaki.

In Raila's speech, he only made one reference to Mheshimiwa Kibaki restating their desire for peace in the country.

When Kibaki spoke, he did not mention Raila or opposition in his speech, but constantly referred to everyone as Kenyans. In his speech, he restated that he was duly elected and sworn in as the president of Kenya. The rest of his speech constantly spoke of "my government". When he spoke of dialogue, he said that this will be within 'our' legal and constitutional framework - which is the same as telling his opponents to go to court, and that any deals must be within the law! In a way, he was reminding all and sundry that he was PRESIDENT and that position will not be negotiated.

It was therefore unsurprising that ODM in an evening media briefing 'attacked' Kibaki for referring to himself as President!!!

Kibaki is duly elected preside
written by Amina , January 24, 2008

I am sorry, but I don't see what the fuss is. Kibaki has been sworn in so that makes him president, whether there was rigging or not. Remember Moi rigged every election, and he was still President.

Now, does ODM still want Kibaki to step down? Do they want an interim government? Or do they want a unity government?

re: Kibaki is duly elected pre
written by Wuod Aketch , January 24, 2008

Well the meeting took place and only three people were in that room; Annan, President Kibaki and Hon. Raila. All the aides were left out of the meeting.

You mean Kalonzo was just listening behind the doors?
So you see how greediness and being without principles can hurt!!!
But what were these people doing in harambee house? Taking tea?
If there is a winner tonight, it is Kenya, followed closely by Raila. For Raila to bring out Kibaki to Harambee house, there must be some panic in state house.
What is making presidential usurper and impostor more cooperative? Is it the ODM menace of boycotting his friendly enterprises and financers?

ODM should keep on pushing, the breach is widening and soon opening.

Just listen to yourselves
written by mkosakabila , January 24, 2008

Amina and Wuod Aketch--I am soooo thankful that none of you is handling the mediation. Cant you just for a moment put aside your egos or delusions of grandeur and give this thing a chance?!

Who\'s playing games?
written by a guest , January 25, 2008

Woud,

If I correctly recall, it was Raila who said he cannot meet with Kibaki without mediators. It is Raila who refused to attend the meeting ODM was invited to at state house on Friday. It was Raila who refused to attend the last harambee house meeting after suprising kibaki with a statement to sign, even before dialogue had begun.

In this latest meeting, it was raila who picked a fight by referring to Kibaki as honourable, sutley but surely telling the world that he does not recognise him as president. He could have chosen not to refer to him directly.

So, who's playing games here?

...
written by john , January 25, 2008

I agree ..many kenyans are so petty and these politicians are too instead of getting down to the real issues they are stil busy arguing over who called who what..
we should now be addressing land and constitutional issues.Infact kibaki can keep his stolen presidency he should just be forced by kenyans and international community to address land and constitutional issues...these two are stupid

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

JOhn, we need more people like you. People seem to think that if they solve this election fiasco, things will be solved.

1. As Kenyans, we need to see the problem in the Rift Valley and as John says, deal with the land issues. Every election year (2002 will always be the exception.. it seems so long ago and a dream) has brought about clashes in the region. There is even violence between election years but our politicians have either ignored it or encouraged the violence.

2. People are talking about things (e.g. election re-runs) that I feel Kenya is not capable of doing. Our Constitution is a joke. Instead of trying to find quick-fix solutions we should already be putting our heads together so that what happened in Kenya NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. We need institutions that are strong and independent and that help check the politicians. If as a politician/leader you don't do you job to the satisfaction of the people, YOU ARE OUT! Kenya belongs to Kenyans and we decide who will lead us or who won't.

3. If you don't think our leaders are petty. Let me give you an example. Last week, both sides decided to reveal that they are taking the other to/filed claims with the ICC. They tried to make it sound like suddenly, the leaders in government will be hauled to the Hague or arrest warrants from the ICC will be calling for ODM leaders to be brought to Holland.

Under Article 17 of the Rome Statute (ICC's statute), the court only has jurisdiction when the state which does have it is unable or unwilling to try. Here, that would be Kenya. And it would have to be shown that the Kenyan courts does not/will not or cannot try the people responsible for the atrocities.

Another way it could get into the ICC: Case can be referred by another state party or the prosecutor or by the Security Council of the UN.

There are three crimes that come under ICC jurisdiction: war crimes (not in Kenya), genocide (despite reckless rhetoric, IS NOT IN KENYA!! what carelessness to use the word) and crimes against humanity (we have a case here due to the killings, looting, raping and police brutality). But we still have our own courts and police THAT SHOULD DEAL WITH US.

I am urging Kenyans to rise above the pettiness and grand-standing. Our problems have been exposed to the world and most importantly to ourselves. Great nations are built from how they respond to a crisis. This is our moment.

Who called himself what is nei
written by Prof. Baya Kobangoshe , January 25, 2008

What's the fuss? Hon Amollo and Hon Mwai K. are both MPs and they know it. Hon. Amollo know that Hon Mwai K is for now also the President of Kenya whether he says it or not for the cameras and the media. Kofi Anan didn't see what ODM is fussy about. He went a head and refered to his host as H.E President Mwai K.

If Hon. Amollo was serious, then he should have sat on the president's seat in Parliament. After all, he went if before President MK did.

The belief that the presidency was stollen from Hon. Amollo is only a speculation. The ECK boss, Kivuitu was categorical that he was not sure he knew who fairly won the presidency between President MK and Hon. Amollo. How on earth can Hon. Amollo then purport to have been the dejure president.

re: Kibaki is duly elected pre
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

I am sorry, but I don't see what the fuss is. Kibaki has been sworn in so that makes him president, whether there was rigging or not. Remember Moi rigged every election, and he was still President.

Now, does ODM still want Kibaki to step down? Do they want an interim government? Or do they want a unity government?

What we have to agree that riggging will not be allowed .If the stolen election is not nullified then we cannot allow this peace business to get on the way .

(...)

Point to ponder:
Do you think Museveni should enlighten Kibaki on what he did when the elections were stolen?

TruthBeTold, you've been warned at least once before that neither insults nor incitement are welcome here. This is your second warning. Ed.

re:
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

Under Article 17 of the Rome Statute (ICC's statute), the court only has jurisdiction when the state which does have it is unable or unwilling to try. Here, that would be Kenya. And it would have to be shown that the Kenyan courts does not/will not or cannot try the people responsible for the atrocities.

Another way it could get into the ICC: Case can be referred by another state party or the prosecutor or by the Security Council of the UN.

There are three crimes that come under ICC jurisdiction: war crimes (not in Kenya), genocide (despite reckless rhetoric, IS NOT IN KENYA!! what carelessness to use the word) and crimes against humanity (we have a case here due to the killings, looting, raping and police brutality). But we still have our own courts and police THAT SHOULD DEAL WITH US.

Hey the land clashes have been with us for so long and nobody has ever been tried. Since all the governments of the day have never even tried to bring the perpetrators to book then this should go to ICC.

Similarly peple are being killed because of their tribes (both by ODM supporters and the police) and we do not want to label it genocide.

Most genocides are only genocide after people have been killed and the matter is history

(...) Attempted justification of RV violence removed. Truth Be Told, see below. Ed.

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

Truth Be Told,

This is not going to the ICC. Read up on the court and see how their jurisdiction is defined. It is not a simple matter of whether it should go to the ICC. It has to follow certain rules. It is a long and hard process (see the ICC and UN's struggle to deal with Sudan and Northern Uganda!!).

Second, it is true what you say that Kenyan authorities has ignored it. But they can't do that now. The killings, evictions, arson and looting that has been taking place is unprecedented and pushed Kenya to the brink. It is threatening the stability of the Rift Valley, which is Kenya's bread basket. The government knows if they don't act to stem ALL the violence, it could have severe effects.

Third, there has not been genocide in Kenya. I am not saying this to sugar-coat anything. The definition is very specific. However, there have been crimes against humanity. Murder is such a crime. There is no justification for the violence. NONE AT ALL. People must have thought that targetting certain peoplw would bring about change. Wapi? And at this point, any killings that are still going on are not related to the election but is a bunch of opportunists that have seen the chance to cause havoc.

In fact the violence is taking the focus away from the election fiasco. If anybody thought that violence would pressure Kibaki to step down, that plan has backfired. It has moved the focus to bringing peace alone. Yet, we continue to ignore the land issues in the Rift Valley. My heart goes out to all my brothers and sisters that have lost their lives, those displaced and have lost all they have. The violence had no justification and no reason.

God bless Kenya

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

Truth,

The following article supports your argument that there are deeper problems in Rift Valley that are beyond this election!

Link here

Prayers
written by magothe , January 25, 2008

I say prayers, because I think if the situation was worse last few weeks, it'll get worse unless these two peeps can get their act together and bring peace. They'll stop to matter if can't do so now...

Anybody noticed something strange? 3 out of the 4 multiparty elections have involved the slaughtering of Kikuyus. 3 out of 4 elections have been rigged. Only one of them has involved post-election violence and riots. Some politicians need to bring a new style of politics and pull away from primitiveness.

Foot-in-mouth disease
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

It is fairly undeniable - in my opinion - that Kibaki's speech was clumsy, daft and undiplomatic.
He could have made much ground by a supple and conciliatory answer which would have mentioned Raila explicitly, and which would have acknowledged that Kibaki now and for present - regardless of the raised doubts about his legitimacy - is the legal president of all Kenyans, including the more than half who did not vote for him (just as more than half did not ote for Raila either), that he acknowledges grievances with regard to the elections, and that he extends a compromise hand to ODM, as soon as calm is restored.

On the side, the reckless and hateful riposte of the increasingly unpalatable former intellectual known as Anyang' Nyong'o has once again made clear that he has not the slightest interest in any peaceful solution, and that he continues to push ODM and Kenya onto a road of mayhem and bloodshed. His incendiary answer also furthermore supports the very strong suspicions and the circumstantial evidence that some ODM politicians are behind the ethnic cleansing and the massmurders in Rift Valley.

Alexander

Attempted justification of RV
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

I cannot and will never justify the vilence in the rift valley.If it seems i do then i apologise as human life is very sacred to me

But the reasons for the land grievances among the Kalenjin are very much known to kenyans .

They have to do with what happened at independence and refusing to address this issue will not make it go away.

I am now taking a break from writing to this forum as most of my comments i believe are very unpalatable to the editors.

I will engage in serious soul searching -May be i will be back but I leave you with thought: Lets confront our history

...
written by ATribeCalledKenya , January 25, 2008

I don't expect the meeting to yield much. Even after peace is restored, the elections will still remain as they were - highly flawed and inconclusive.

Are we still cattle rustling in Kenya? In a short time we'll be experiencing food shortages...consumers, start saving now because the prices will be ridiculous.

I don't know how, but I hope that Mr-duly-elected-president will be smart about how he proceeds from here. It's hot out there.

If Kibaki was to submit to new mother-of-transparent elections...he'd probably win. One, there's no real alternative and two, Raila's behavior in the last month or so has diminished his potential to command the same support he did just a month.

...
written by denno , January 27, 2008

I really dont trust the Anyang Nyongo guy, I always put on TV I see him on a press confrence I miss a heart beat this guy might be a guerilla. the meeting would succeed but the cliche feel they would be left out if Raila form a coalition or PM

re: Anyang Nyongo
written by Wuod Aketch , January 27, 2008

I really dont trust the Anyang Nyongo guy, I always put on TV I see him on a press confrence I miss a heart beat this guy might be a guerilla. the meeting would succeed but the cliche feel they would be left out if Raila form a coalition or PM

Is it because he wears a Savimbi beard? If Kibaki continues being stubborn, you may miss several heart beats as he might take the occasion to take to the bush.

...
written by D , January 27, 2008

My fellow Kenyans, who would have thought the euphoria and hope that erupted in 2002 would lead to this? Kenyans put so much hope and really united that year but were severely let down!!

Kenya despite its "success" has had some of the worst leadership on the continent, IMO. Bad leadership in that our politicians say the right things but commit deplorable acts behind closed doors (corruption, power-hungry, inciting and funding mobs and militias (e.g. mungiki, rift valley thugs, etc). They have managed to get away with their incompetence, stupidity and lack of class. But something has happened: Kenyans are smarter, more aware and more cynical. Kenya has the potential to be a real force in the world but requires leaders that can lead her to that prosperity.

For example, the current crisis has just shown their true colours. One thing that one can do very successfully in Kenya is to SWEEP everything under the carpet. In fact, it seems to be a politician in Kenya, it makes more sense to be armed with a broom than with intelligence.

Kenyans are intelligent but our leadership has not reached our level. Right now, who cares about the presidency when people are being slaughtered in Rift? You say you are the duly elected president, but tell us, dear sir, why are people dying?

Kibaki is facing a legitimacy problem. At home and abroad. There are parts of the country that the man cannot even step on.. he is a lame duck president. There is the possibility that Kibaki might have won. There is also the same possibility that Raila we won. We don't know. In fact, neither of them should be screaming "I won" when there is no proof that you did.

ODM needs to focus on the election rather than the "we won" mentality. Kivuitu said he did not know. Kibaki needs to face that he has no credibility. You can't have such hard-line positions while people die. They should both try to move towards a new election (maybe in 6 months).. Kibaki might win anyway now that ODM-K are in the government.

Both seem oblivious to what their rhetoric has caused. Annan was shocked by what he saw in Rift Valley. He told both of them to go there and see how much damage is being done.

Kenya needs a new breed of politicans. The Kenyan people have moved beyond the stale and backward politics that the current group want to shove down our throats. We deserve better.

So, right now, if both sides cannot be moved despite the suffering of their people, then they must think of their legacy and how they will be remembered...

Computer Engineer and company
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , February 14, 2008

Its so sad that NOTHING is being done about corruption. The current solution of power sharing is just sharing the "rights" to suck the lifeblood out of Kenya. Both contestants for the power are corrupted to the extreme. Im starting to think it would be best with a new colonization of Kenya by England - because the morality of the Kenyan elite is just non-existant. What a lousy collection of people they are.

Eh, Nicolai?
written by mkosakabila , February 14, 2008

I am inclined to tell you to SHUT UP, but am afraid of the editors. First, I must agree with you that there is great cause to remain suspicious of whatever pact or agreement that was cooked in secrecy in Tsavo. Too top down.

England has been very active with regard to Kenyas election dispute. Could it be that they are positioning themselves to recolonize Kenya? Might you know something that we dont? Eh, Nicolai?

As to the notion that the English leadership is not corrupt and is indeed a paragon of morality, I have no means to verify and very tempted to believe you. But I do remember reading in the Economist newspaper on diverse dates between December 2004 and 2006 articles that seemed to imply corruption. I can run a search and so can you. As an example, some of the loot stolen from African treasuries did get deposited in English banks. Taking action against banks on account of corruption would destablize economies, and politicians were not ready to go that route. As if that were not enough, I thought I read in Githongos report that the Anglo Leasing scam had some connection to the English people. Not sure whether or how many of them were politicians. The same difference.

So, am not telling you to SHUT UP, I guess i can indulge you not least to assuage your racist ego.

(Nicolai might be a racist in his heart - as many Kenyans are - or not, but that cannot be inferred from his posting, which did nothing but state an uncomfortable truth. One might also be inclined to quip that it sometimes takes a racist to recognize one... Ed.)

One last thing not to forget. The English colonists in Kenya were not paragons of morality either.

Keep well.

sanctioned
written by mkosakabila , February 14, 2008

(Nicolai might be a racist in his heart - as many Kenyans are - or not, but that cannot be inferred from his posting, which did nothing but state an uncomfortable truth. One might also be inclined to quip that it sometimes takes a racist to recognize one... Ed.)

Sawa. Am duly sanctioned and take back the accusation. I will look forward to the Gracious Queen sending us her paragons of virtue and morality (and wickedness?).
L-O-N-G may She rule over us!

Racist .. not at all..
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Hehe.. Well, I expected the racist comment to come up. I guess that accusation is the last refuge of the incompetent. I myself is married to a native Kenyan. The only decent and recent politician is Kithongo and he had to flee to England when he actually tried to do some good. I totally agree that England has not been completely good in the past, but tell me, which powerful country has been that? EVER? At least England brought Kenya some development which is partly why Kenya fare better than most other african countries. Besides its fairly certain that a colonizing power wouldnt be able to do more harm to Kenya than Kenyas own "elite" - simply because of the openess in the media and a much more democratic government than what kenya has. So think a little about it. Why is most african countries doing so badly? You cant blame the colonization still. Get over it and get your countries up to standard. Africa has the resources to be the best place in the world. But your "elites" fuck you over and out.

Corruption exist everywhere
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Yes indeed the corruption is everywhere. But in some places the leaders realize that everyone gains from having a good and productive population. Try to compare the natural resources of countries and then explain to me why Kenya has a population that lives below Slavery standards. Its the all penetrating corruption in the leadership which is the reason. How can you get rid of this? You cant when its almost everyone - therefore external help is needed. Colonization is perhaps a too strong word, but some external power is needed to clean up the mess - because its most certainly not going to happen by itself. In the old days a revolution could do some of it.. Very bloody and not at all ensured that decent people got to power. Today the military powers of the ruling class is too far above which means that the corrupt leaders cannot be removed by the decent people. Especially is the decent people are threatened and killed for just mentioning the problems.

Piping money and resources out
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Indeed a lot of corrupt money and resources come to Europe, USA, China, India. But who owns the african countries? Who are the responsible people in the african countries? I will tell you: The african leaders, The Elite. Those people would never think about investing their stolen goods and money in africa because they know first hand how fucked up the leaderships are. They pipe their money to safer places where they dont risk competing corrupt leaders. I have on other websites said that if Europe(and other rich "countries") wanted to real good to africa they would stop the money and resource trafficing out of africa. Look at the top 150 of world riches people. Last time i looked about 50 of them came from poor african countries. How is that possible? Where do you think they live: In usa and england. What race and nation do they come from: They are black, comming from africa. The people that are totally exploiting africa is the african elite. Im sorry, but its obviously an african leadership problem. And its kinda hard for a country to say to legal billionaries: please go somewhere else with all you money and invest them somewhere else.

re: Corruption exist everywher
written by James Macharia , March 06, 2008

Yes indeed the corruption is everywhere. But in some places the leaders realize that everyone gains from having a good and productive population. Try to compare the natural resources of countries and then explain to me why Kenya has a population that lives below Slavery standards. Its the all penetrating corruption in the leadership which is the reason. How can you get rid of this? You cant when its almost everyone - therefore external help is needed. Colonization is perhaps a too strong word, but some external power is needed to clean up the mess - because its most certainly not going to happen by itself. In the old days a revolution could do some of it.. Very bloody and not at all ensured that decent people got to power. Today the military powers of the ruling class is too far above which means that the corrupt leaders cannot be removed by the decent people. Especially is the decent people are threatened and killed for just mentioning the problems.

Just in case you didn't know Kenya doesn't really that many natural resources. Don't throw the term slavery so lightly. Colonization. Our people paid in blood to get where we are today. Africa is like a baby growing up. We'll stumble and fall but eventually we'll walk. The bruises are part of growing up and will only make us stronger. Something self built is much more satisfactory than anything built and then handed over.

...
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

It is impossible to say whether Mathiassen is racist or not, it is indeed likely that he is. Most people who use the term Africa are racist, whether they are black or white is immaterial. It takes a certain special kind of ignorance and blindness to describe a continent with close to 1 billion people on the basis of a few stereotypes that refer more to one country or culture than others.
I have argued before against the use of the term, of cause the racists among us want to persist in using it, it even allows them to support Barack Obama and to cheer him on purely on account of his melanin enhancement. Unless the term is used in a geographical sense, it cannot help but be an ignorant, generalising put-down.
P.S, I was watching this BBC show on the Tropic of Capricorn, the show was going through Botswana and the man was rather disturbed by the elements of maendeleo he saw about him. Then while travelling on a road, he encounters a cow ambling across it, not too bothered about the cards. Know what he says? He goes with, Ah, and here is the old Africa.ђ
Nicholai is probably a troll, but he would do well to realise that corruption is not at all an African phenomenon, and neither is it most debilitating in Africa (this same claim of Nicholais was made on the BBC show in shock that there was not much of it in Namibia). Anyhow, corruption does not cause countries to be backward, this should not be understood as tolerance of it, but whilst corruption does set back countries and states, it is business and innovation that truly drives progress. Ireland, the Baltics, South Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, the Phillipines, even the USA and the UK all developed into prosperous societies on the back of extremely corrupt societies.
When the old clichҩ is enounced, namely that Taiwan and South Korea were at the same level as Kenya or Ghana at independence, or in 1980, the ignoramus mouthing it almost always forgets the reason for the divergence. Whereas Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam and South Korea enjoyed a green revolution we did not put too much of a priority on that. Where they had a million and one start-ups diversifying their economies, we all obsessed about buying as much land as possible, growing as much tea, coffee, pyrethrum and sugar cane as possible.
To see the transformative power of diversification, just look at the growth enjoyed with the growth of services since 1997 or thereabouts, look at the difference caused by lowering interest rates in the last five years, look at the number of well-paid high-skilled jobs created and the number of large MNCs and start-ups in Nairobi these last five years; alternatively look at Ireland and India (corruption really has not let up at all in these countries). It is a lack of innovation and diversification that impoverishes.

re: Racist .. not at all..
written by James Macharia , March 06, 2008

Hehe.. Well, I expected the racist comment to come up. I guess that accusation is the last refuge of the incompetent. I myself is married to a native Kenyan. The only decent and recent politician is Kithongo and he had to flee to England when he actually tried to do some good. I totally agree that England has not been completely good in the past, but tell me, which powerful country has been that? EVER? At least England brought Kenya some development which is partly why Kenya fare better than most other african countries. Besides its fairly certain that a colonizing power wouldnt be able to do more harm to Kenya than Kenyas own "elite" - simply because of the openess in the media and a much more democratic government than what kenya has. So think a little about it. Why is most african countries doing so badly? You cant blame the colonization still. Get over it and get your countries up to standard. Africa has the resources to be the best place in the world. But your "elites" fuck you over and out.

As far as I know Githongo was no politician but some dude appointed to head some institution. No one asked England or any colonial powers to come and bring us development. What they were and are still after are resources. They are not some form of gods who should be worshipped because they killed our culture and brought us into a state of eternal slavery and killed a substantial number of our people. Colonialism was not some form of paradise that descended upon our people but an act of savagery brought to us by those who claim to be 'civilized'. That people were willing to pay in blood for the white man to get the hell out, should erase that romantic imagery you are trying to propagate here.

Independent African states are on average 45-50 years old. Europe did not arrive at where it is today in that time span but has a continuous history going back to a 1000 years+. In that history are acts as savage as any experienced in present day Africa. Europe's history has its fair share of despotic and brutal rulers. Post colonial Africa has little in common with pre-colonial Africa.
Pre-colonial Africa was destroyed by an enemy who frankly had more fire power.

Granted our leaders are corrupt but the world is not built in a way as to let our people countries thrive. European and USA continue to subsidize farm produce instead of letting African countries compete in their markets, while we import all sorts of expensive gadgetry from the EU,US and Asia. This state of affairs is not in our favour and we are in little position to change it. After all, the west and its allies had a considerable head start.

Not to despair, Africa will eventually get there of that I'm certain. World history has to be viewed in terms of Millennia and not in terms of a few decades.

Afro-Pessimism
written by aeichener , March 06, 2008

One must do one's best to resist the contagious germs of the illness called afro-pessimism. While this illness was initially attributed to colonialism, the germs seem to have adapted, and nowadays the epidemy affect at least as many if not more native Africans than (white or other) foreigners.

Can anybody recommend to me a resistance-strengthening medicine?

Alexander

...
written by manta ray , March 06, 2008

Nicolai Mathiassen, to say you are truly ignorant is to be generous. Suffice it to say that white colonialists DID NOT bring development to Kenya for the benefit of the natives. They brought development to the areas where they lived exclusively, for themselves and for their own use. They built schools so that they could educate young Africans to become their tools for the management of Kenya to their advantage. They built roads in Central Kenya and parts of the Rift Valley plus the railway line to Kisumu and Uganda to transport what they took out of the lands they had grabbed by force of arms, you arrogant twit.
When Kenyatta took over in 1963, he maintained and actually improved on the development Kenya inherited, and that is why Kenya was at par with Malaysia and South Korea by 1970. When Moi took over in 1978, he systematically destroyed the country, and the blame lies squarely at his doorstep.
Yes, there is/was debilitating corruption in Kenya, but it is no different from the massive 80 billion$ Al-Yamama arms scandal during Tony Blair's rule, and which was hushed up by the UK's Serious Fraud Office. The British Media hardly squeaked.
Corruption has, of course, destroyed Kenya and other African countries, but most of the proceeds are banked in Western Countries. What has the British Govt and other self righteous EU authorities done to discourage this criminal behaviour? They enthuthiastically welcome these illegal funds into their banking systems and have done absolutely nothing to seize the funds and repatriate them back to the countries of origin. It is not like they cannot assist to trace the proceeds of criminal activity. Look at the speed with which they moved to recover Jewish assets stolen by the Nazis. What is the difference where African assets are concerned?
Please do not insult us by telling us you are married to a native Kenyan. You think that legitimizes your ill-informed contentions?
The West, and especially the UK, actively coddled and supported the Moi edifice for years, all for extremely selfish reasons. The British did not give a hoot about the suffering Kenyans underwent, and as long as Moi gave them and their Kenya cowboy kith and kin free reign to engage in "white mischief", he could hobble Kenya with corruption as much as possible.
The Moi Govt would have collapsed in 1992 when Kenneth Matiba defeated him in that years General Election despite massive rigging, but instead of supporting Matiba's case, the British were the first to recognise the Moi claim to the Presidency. It was a well known fact that Matiba was a no-nonsense man who would have shut down the Moi corruption networks in a heartbeat, but the British would not allow an independent minded and forceful personality like Matiba to have his way as he would never have become their puppet.
To be sure, get the finger out and whiff the pong.

If you read what i write....
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

I can see there is a lot of misunderstanding of my posts. Perhaps several of you should read them again. And try to inform me instead of just being angry and project your own (wrong) assumptions about me.
To clarify some of the points:
1. I wrote that there is corruption everywhere, but Kenyans are responsible for their own country and if enough power was put into it the exploitation of resources could be minimized.
2. I also wrote that the fruits of exploitation are put into the rich countries. Where i wrote that the money earned in africa should ideally be invested there. I would like vouch for laws that prevent this, but it has to be a worldwide effort - so any one country has great difficulty in saying no to the investments knowing that the people will just go somewhere else.
3. Afro-pessismism no. But pessimism in general yes. All countries are unfortunately led by psychoes.
4. The most corrupt place on earth is probably the U.S. The difference is that the developed countries has so much to steal(and have stolen) that riches still trickle down into the normal population. Which is not the case in the countries that has gotten robben. You must realize its absolutely impossible to the robbed countries to get their stolen money back. Its a matter of military power - not decency.
5. Im not at all trying the say that colonization was all good - it was bloody hell. What I said: Get over it - nobody is going to babysit you. You had since Kenyattas rule to get better. One has to realize that while the colonizing forces where complete assholes it was all a matter of having the power and others not. If africans had gotten the powerful weapons of industrialization they would have gone to europe and other places and done exactly the same. Humankind is always led by what seems to be very evil people.
6. I did know that about Matiba - thanks for mentioning it. I will read up on it.
7. The public media in the usa, europe is completely lacking in independence from the governments and cannot be considered a resource of reliable information.
8. Slavery: Afica is not alone in having de-facto slavery. China is the foremost of all countries in that respect. I guess the real difference between Europe, USA and for example africa and china is that the slaves in the rich countries are treated somewhat better - which is a choice made by the ruling class and development of the industrial base as well as limiting population growth.
9. Kenya did have large natural resources, but an extremely high birthrate has depleted it faster than industrialization could help it. People may not like the fact that there is a fixed amount of space and resources that has to be shared. The more people, the less for each.

10. Please try to keep calm and focused on correcting me instead of badmouthing. I can see some people here dont want to believe otherwise, but again: I have absolutely nothing against any type of race - We are all the same, equally able of doing good or bad, being clever or stupid. Obviously some people here has a need to focus on their own inferiority complexes. Im very sorry for you, it was not my intention to step on your fragile egos.

11. I have problems with seeing that the word "africa" is a racist word. I have no clue how that is possible? Then "Europe" is also racist? I use it as a geographical designator - nothing more. If I had to mention country by country it would be impossible to read/write anything.

12. Concerning fair trade and subsidies. I completely agree: The european union as well as U.S. are stacking the cards against african countries. Im COMPLETELY against it - and have written that in many newspapers and forums. I consider the european union perhaps the largest collection of robbers (only competition is the U.S.).

13. Yes Europe has had many evil rulers, massive famines, and so forth. But things changed a lot after the industrial age. These changes should also be possible in i.e. Kenya. Look at Denmark, Its a little shithole with no resources whatsoever. Only production is Pigs and Milk. Nevertheless its a very rich country and very ordered. This builds on the fact that they educated the people and built good social structures where people were secure in their lifes. This is one of the things the african governments could have done for their populations. - Again.. I know that Europe and U.s. has a "brain-drain" strategy. But it has to be up to the goverments of the countries to make educated people stay and develop the country. I truly wish it was illegal to suck out the educated people of the poor countries. But how do you do that when its the educated people themselves that wants to leave?

14. I admit that U.K is extremely corrupt - no doubt about it. I believe that is clear from my previous statements. However, please, explain to me how its possible to fix the massive exploitation without external influences? Who/what do you propose? Instead of being destructive in comments - be constructive - That can actually lead to something - While destruction leads ... where you are now.. which is nowhere...

The only thing i admit to of all your accusations is that im might be ignorant. So teach me. Im a willing student.

Besides:..
If God punished humanity fairly, there would be no humans alive.

Also..
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

manta ray .. Except for your starting comment which is absolutely useless I greatly admire your post. I completely agree with almost everything you say. I wrote wrong in my previous post I did NOT know about that election. And-Of course U.K did not develop kenya for the kenyans best, but for their own. But it none-the-less was a bonus for kenya - after they left. Compared to many other places where people had nothing when the colonial power left.
Besides - Im doing my best to help Kenya IRL. Collecting computers shipping them to Kenya. Building up free school for poor streetchildren. Im using all my saved up wealth from europe to make things better. Is that the mark of a racist? Unfortunately, A lot of my planning got ruined in the "war" in Kibera and the associates I had there fled to other places. So, excuse me, if im a little radical. Im also a little mad at what happened. It was a hell of a lot that got ruined by a stupid mob that dont know that its stupid to pee (and poo) in their own bed.

nicholai- read and learn
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

It takes a certain special kind of ignorance and blindness to describe a continent with close to 1 billion people on the basis of a few stereotypes that refer more to one country or culture than others.

Unless the term is used in a geographical sense, it cannot help but be an ignorant, generalising put-down.

I wonder whether you read this at all. Please feel free to tear into Kenya as much as you can, I will not think it racist or ignorant, but without a doubt speaking about Africa as you do is a racist generalisation.

Your positions sound most civil and liberal, so I hope you can understand my aversion to the use of the term African. No one in their right mind would think of referring to specific ills within Russian society as European, no one would have thought to refer to British corruption or unreliability as European, would they?
Manta Ray,
Allow me a while to write out a proper response to you, but I am sad to say that I feel like we have less and less in common. Makes me very sad. Kenyatta did not do a good job, not by any means. He borrowed too much, did not effect the Green Revolution, did not promote a culture of innovation and business, and worst of all entrenched a system of cronyism, patronage and corruption. Kenya was already very sick by the time Moi took over. Even worse, while Moi has the excuse of a high population, massive interest payments, ESAPs, HIV-AIDs and the 1982 coup, I find there is very little reason for alleging that Kenyatta was at all a good president.

I can find a lot of reason to defend Kibaki's record, but close to nothing to defend Kenyatta, Kenya really would have been a much better place if the man had never lived.

manta, manta
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

Matiba did not defeat Moi in 2002, please do not let the ethnic chauvinist in you out. Plus, what is the difference between Matiba and Raila? Two mad men, with very little in the way of intelligence. Will you kindly explain to us how Matiba managed to get so rich, or how his economic fortunes dwindled?

Re read and learn
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Stephen Wanyama. Im very sorry - Im not native in English and had no clue it was racist. Generalization is a useful tool that is difficult to avoid using when talking about the "masses". Unfortunately, its also easy to misunderstand. I dont know how to express it in another way. Please tell me how?

If you look at Denmark during the 1900-2000 years you will see what could have been done in Kenya. Denmark took HUGE loans that during the 1970s amounted to approx. 20% of BNP. However, the money was used on educating people and build a social security system. - Which Denmark has benefitted greatly from. Now Denmark is not only an agricultural producer, but also into I.T. and knowledge. However, if you look at the loans that (im sorry) african/southamerican leader got in the world bank. - They got funelled back to Europe / U.S. by CORRUPT government officials. Which is (i believe) why so many countries in africa(sry again) is now indebted and has gotten NOTHING of value from all their loans. I repeat an earlier statement: Top 150 of riches people in the world approx. 50 are African - Africans which were evil, corrupt, and did not care at all about their own countries, but only about their pockets. Some time ago i saw the most horrifying documentary about this where they interviewed several of these extremely rich africans living in Europe/U.S. And I tell you: They were completely utterly insane and absolutely no worth to humankind. However, from their explanations, it became evident, that it was not by the help of U.S/EU governments that the money was funelled out, but only because of their own overblown egos and greed.

I dont know wether im wrong or right, but I sometimes believe that aid should be stopped to the poor countries for the simple reason: They have to be paid back and with interest. As long as the aid is not used constructively and there is corruption in the government then the "aid" will just be an indirect way to impoverish the population by putting them into a debt prison. Which is why i deem the "aid" as a kind of economic warfare.

Again please correct me, but be civil.

Africa
written by James Watt , March 06, 2008

Nicholai Mathiasen, what are this natural resources that you are talking about? Is it magadi soda? As far as I know, we have no large quantities of gold, silver diamonds or oil like some of our neighbours. Our natural resources hardly feature as a huge source of income in this country. Our number one source of income is tourist, then probably followed by tea or coffee and horticulture.

There was an article in the Sunday standard that explained just how little of the total percentage of money earned through all this that actually belongs to us. The biggest tea plantations and flower farms are owned by British companies. And the vast business that transpires through tourism remains in Europe with the companies that organize the tours etc.

You talk of stopping aid. Well the Kibaki administration made a concerted to reduce Kenyans dependance on aid. I agree, we'll never be totally free unless we get rid of all aid.
The point has been made that most European societies can trace their histories back a thousand years as can indeed some Asian countries. Africa is a continent that was raped out of its culture. Our way of transferring and recording our history, mainly through oral means died with advent of European schooling. I wager that most Kenyans will be but total strangers, indeed just like any European if placed by a time machine in the age where our ancestors lived. Save for the common language, this folks would be like aliens to most if not all of us. So how can one say that the British brought us "Development" .

With what are we supposed to compare what the British brought us, if we have no idea what it is that made old Africa Tick? An Englishman just needs to pick up a copy of Charles Dickens or Jane Austen and can be transferred into the workings and thinking of the 18th or 19th century Europe, A jew needs but to pick up the Torah and can be with Moses at the parting of the red sea, but what is a poor Kenyan to do? Alas, all the story tellers are all long dead and buried. Who were this people. What were their dreams and aspirations. Why were the women not opposed to what is now called FGM, as brutal as it is? Or were they? Is the corrupt nature in our societies a genetical inheritance from our ancestors or is it as I suspect a direct inheritance of colonialism?

There are 1001 questions that we can't learn from any books. Sure Jomo Kenyatta can tell you about how the society was organized in facing Mt. Kenya but he can't tell you if the women felt oppressed or how much say they had or what went on through a young mans mind. The Umbilical Chord is cut, Africa is but 100 years of age at best and for half of that time we were under European shackles. Do not judge us by the standards of those who are 1000 years old.

...
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

That dear James Watt is nonsense. Firstly, economic progress does not depend on a knowledge of history, but on present day systems. The Torah and the Koran are not books on economic systems, they are about religion.

I have never been able to stand this lost culture excuse, especially because it is so untrue. Take the Bukusu for example. What culture have they lost, and when did they lose it? I mean the British came to Western Kenya in an interfering way only maybe in the mid-1900s. I cannot think of any measure of colonial rule that refused the Bukusu their culture, or took it away from them. I have not heard a single old man make this moan. Please make out for me, what culture have your particular people lost and how do you think this has affected them? For example, if we knew how women felt about oppression 200 years ago, how would that improve our lives today?

It seems to me that you are talking about some tribe of West Africans. Not Kenyans. Slavery, colonisation and so on did not have a terrible effect on Kenya, far, far from it. Stop making excuses, if you do not we have (by your spurious calculation) another 900 years of excuses ambling along towards us! Asking to be held to different standards my brother is admitting inferiority, mind.

anachronism
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

Nicholai,
Never mind, I find it very offensive, but you will find that many people here speak of Africa in a similar tone. If you do not mind, I would rather we moved over to another thread as this one is rather out of date, don't you think?
I am not at all in opposition to the majority of your opinions, I may have written them myself, but Kenya's problems are Kenyan and not African. Kenya has a lot going for it which other countries in Africa do not, and they have a lot lacking which other countries have. There is no single Africa, no matter what the racists say (whether they are black or white is immaterial). So feel free to tear into Kenya as much as you want, it is indeed a terribly run country with what is mostly a very poor leadership and a national culture of backwardness (just look how religious we are for example). But allow me to be livid when you speak of African problems, that is indeed racist.

re: manta, manta
written by manta ray , March 06, 2008

Matiba did not defeat Moi in 2002, please do not let the ethnic chauvinist in you out. Plus, what is the difference between Matiba and Raila? Two mad men, with very little in the way of intelligence. Will you kindly explain to us how Matiba managed to get so rich, or how his economic fortunes dwindled?

Stephen, Matiba defeated Moi, it was an open secret, and that is why Moi could never allow him to go to court. Matiba had collected meticulous evidence of KANU's rigging and it was imperative he doesn't present in court. Do you remember the infamous personal service of petition papers? That requirement, now abused as standard procedure, was illegally brought about by the Judicial system to stop Matiba in his tracks. Furthermore, i have close friends who were in YK92 and they told me that Matiba DID win and that they stole his votes, while stuffing illegal votes for Moi. Anyway, if you don't believe he won, you are entitled to your opinion. That said, how does my ethnic chauvinism stand out? I am just stating facts. Please try another one.
It is a fact that Matiba is now a very sick man, maybe even in the throes of madness, but there is no way ANY objective observer could compare Raila with Matiba when he was in his prime.
Matiba got rich even before he joined Kenya Breweries. He worked in Govt throughout the sixties till he joined Kenya Breweries in 1970 as General Manager. Whilst he may have been a Govt officer in the sixties, in fact a PS, he still found time to practice farming on his property in the outskirts of Nairobi in Tigoni, Kiambu district. On that farm, he became the first Kenyan, black, white or brown, to grow flowers for export. He actually took some workers who couldn't even speak english to Holland to learn about tending flowers so that they could come back and teach other workers. Those guys could speak better dutch than they could speak english by the time they came back two years later.
Yes, Stephen, Matiba was the first flower farmer in Kenya, IN 1965! It is said that the likes of Njonjo mocked him for engaging in sissy activity only to get into the business themselves much later, IN THE 70s AND EARLY 80s! A whole 10 - 15 years later. Would you now say that Matiba wasn't a visionary? He was also the first Orchid farmer and as far as i know, he still is. You see, Orchids are extremely difficult flowers to grow but are very lucrative as a business. To this day, you will find branded Matiba Orchids in high end shops from New York to Tokyo.
Matiba also mobilised peasant farmers in his constituency in Murang'a in the seventies, more than 10000 of them by last count, to buy shares for as low as 20/= in the Wangu Embori farm in Meru that rears sheep for the export of wool.
I could go on and on about his various business interests in the hospitality industry and in chemical industrialization but the point has been made. Whatever activity he engaged in became a success. The man was a dynamic personality and to compare him to Raila is to insult his legacy. It is just unfortunate that he became so ill but Matiba inspired young people like us across ethnic lines.
The facts of his illness are well documented and i do not need to get into them now but suffice it to say that the illness obviously affected his capacity to run his businesses and his political career.
Furthermore, Matiba has NEVER been cited for a single case of corruption. Why do you think Moi hated and feared him so much? Answer: He couldn't buy him.

(Very good, substantial posting, Manta Ray. Thank you. Ed.)

re:Matiba in 1992
written by Daniel.Waweru , March 06, 2008

Matiba defeated Moi, it was an open secret, and that is why Moi could never allow him to go to court.

Manta, very interesting stuff. Rigging in the Rift in 1992 was blatant (and Ford-Asili may also have rigged in some of its areas). Throup and Hornsby report that 'the elections in Baringo North, Baringo East, and Baringo Central were almost certainly fraudulent' (see p. 465). Likewise Kerio East, West, and Central. Maina Kiai also did some research, which showed, he claimed, that some polling stations in these areas had turnouts of over 200%. Voters were also ferried from these districts to vote in Nakuru, and other opposition-friendly seats in RVP. As usual, no opposition agents were allowed into these zones in Central RVP.

That said, the Moi-Matiba gap was about 500,000 votes; it isn't clear that the massive rigging explains all of it.

re: re:Matiba in 1992
written by manta ray , March 06, 2008

Matiba defeated Moi, it was an open secret, and that is why Moi could never allow him to go to court.

Manta, very interesting stuff. Rigging in the Rift in 1992 was blatant (and Ford-Asili may also have rigged in some of its areas). Throup and Hornsby report that 'the elections in Baringo North, Baringo East, and Baringo Central were almost certainly fraudulent' (see p. 465). Likewise Kerio East, West, and Central. Maina Kiai also did some research, which showed, he claimed, that some polling stations in these areas had turnouts of over 200%. Voters were also ferried from these districts to vote in Nakuru, and other opposition-friendly seats in RVP. As usual, no opposition agents were allowed into these zones in Central RVP.

That said, the Moi-Matiba gap was about 500,000 votes; it isn't clear that the massive rigging explains all of it.

The rigging by KANU was in parts of Western Kenya, where Matiba still beat Moi and where it was easier to stuff boxes, and in closed off so called KANU zones in parts of Eastern province, Ukambani and Marsabit, Isiolo and so on, the North Rift and the entire North Eastern province and parts of Coast province.
If you remember, Moi was actually behind Matiba in the early counting and then in one single day, his lead increased massively, with the final results coming over a period of five or six days.

manta, la manta
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

Mzee wa kazi,
I guess I came on a little strong, but to say that Moi took over a rosy Kenya and then wrecked it is the sort of historical revisionism that Gikuyu ethno-nationalists are rather famous for.
These arguments about early counting are as irrelevant now as they were then. There is no doubt that Matiba was an ardent ethno-nationalist himself. Yes, Moi did rig, but on the balance he definitely beat Matiba, just do the calculation and see, inertia and the split GEMA vote assured Moi of victory. Matiba did not even have the name recognition to win a national mandate!!

How are Matiba alike? Well, more than anything because they sought to explain and solve the problems of the Kenyan people by attacking an ethnic group purely for its business acumen. You do not remember Matiba's feelings about Asian and white Kenyans?

re:
written by James Watt , March 08, 2008

That dear James Watt is nonsense. Firstly, economic progress does not depend on a knowledge of history, but on present day systems. The Torah and the Koran are not books on economic systems, they are about religion.

I have never been able to stand this lost culture excuse, especially because it is so untrue. Take the Bukusu for example. What culture have they lost, and when did they lose it? I mean the British came to Western Kenya in an interfering way only maybe in the mid-1900s. I cannot think of any measure of colonial rule that refused the Bukusu their culture, or took it away from them. I have not heard a single old man make this moan. Please make out for me, what culture have your particular people lost and how do you think this has affected them? For example, if we knew how women felt about oppression 200 years ago, how would that improve our lives today?

Wanyama, you are a strange man. Your rile against the use of the word African is a bit disturbing. It's after all the description of a people living within a certain geographical entity. The word African is no more racist than the word European, American, Australian, Kenyan or even Nigerian.

To the points you've raises. Mr. Wanyama you are an intelligent man. If two people started collecting stones. One collects them for 1000 years and another for 45 years who at the end of the day will have collected more stones?

The stones in this case is accumulated history of encountering problems, resolving them and improving on existing societies. Do you know for example that European capitals like Berlin and Paris faced the same problems that Nairobi is facing about 100 years ago? Over congestion, fires, disease(thankfully we don't have outbreaks of cholera etc), crime, garbage etc Refer to the solutions offered in creating the league of nations and later the United Nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Haussmann

History can't be shrugged off as you are trying to do Mr. Wanyama. The decision leading up to the establishment of a GNU might recur in 50 years time from now, even if they engineer the best constitution. We might find 50 years on the need to disregard that constitution as we disregarded the present one. Raila Odinga has engineered a genetic defect into our history that we'll never wipe out.

The Bible and the Torah and the Koran for that matter are not just religious books but they are historical accounts. If people were paying closer attention to the bible we'd have discovered a lot of stuff much earlier. Read for example of how Jacob increase his stock. Any parallels to genetics that were discovered in the 19th century, No?
http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...apter=30


I'm happy for the Bukusu. What you say can does not apply to the Agikuyu. Perhgaps I'm wrong for blaming the British. From Ngugi wa Thiongos the river between, I gather that the Gikuyu were quite dazzled by the white mans magic, that they did all they could to get it. They forgot to put markers for people like me to find if we wanted to rediscover our roots and the potential of what might have been.

From Kenyatta's Facing Mt. Kenya, I gather theat the Gikuyu had a rather sophisticated social structure, whether it worked or not would certainly be of great interest to me. As it would be in bulding alternative forms of government. My believe is that the communities living in Kenya at the time were spoilt for resources. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had the resources become scarce.

The British in their quest for resources brought us on a path that we might not have taken at all and brutally killed a lot of people in the process. A side effect, fair enough Wanyama I won't blame the Brits, was the death of any culture African. Indigenous religions were replaced with Christianity, something that's fast losing currency in Europe.