me thinks
written by Mboch , March 15, 2007

We should have a total ban on citizens pocessing or owning fire arms, with the exception of recreational guns( hunting guns etc). And recreational guns can only be owned after undergoing through a thorough gun licensing process of procedures,checks and tests.(psycological tests a must)


I believe, only a well trained unit of fire arm officers should be allowed to handle guns under license, in the protection of the Kenyan citizens. And Licenses renewed annually to armed officers. Anything else of arming citizens is asking for trouble.


'Guns don't kill people, people do'. Tight laws on humans not guns, is the answer.. oh! and in the fewest hands as possible.

Gun Control
written by Amina , March 17, 2007

Gun control to me is addressing the symptom and not the cause. Its interesting that a country like Switzerland which has a much higher rate of hand gun ownership has significantly less hand gun related crime than the US which has enacted some very though gun control measures.

While I agree with you that gun control is not the right way to go, one cannot compare the volatile situation in Kenya with that in Switzerland. I also do not agree on capital punishment for possession of illegal arms!!

guns
written by don , March 17, 2007

"well trained unit of fire arm officers"

do we have any of these in kenya? obviously not. and if they cannot protect you, who will. arm the population and stop panicing quorum. the same number of people are still chipping of crime. think outside the box that you have been exposed to. good people have more of a chance of survival armed than not. especially with the crime boom in kenya where all thugs have guns and by thugs i also mean the police. only the strongest survive and in this day and age, if you are not armed you fit into the minority group classified as the weak. yes, i say they should start arming the population and take some power away from the dubious, trigger happy and corrupt police force that we currently have.

...
written by aeichener , March 17, 2007

Good and thoughtful contributions, thank you all! (That applies also and especially to readers with whom I might not quite agree, such as Mboch - merci!)

But before entering into a more substantial discussion of the issues, let me first answer to the original question of the week:

1. Yes, absolutely. The current licensing procedure in Kenya for a "firearms certificate" (the issuance of temporary permits is presently suspended) is summarily outlined here:
http://www.kenyapolice.go.ke/tips.asp

As one can see, the whole colonial procedure is very cumbersome. The Firearms Act was rapidly drafted under the menace of manjeneti in 1954, and since then, it has been often but always only inconsequentially changed and amended. The one and main issue of the act is to prevent that natives and other untrustworthy folk can acquire weaponry. It was a classist provision in its times: while whites and some reliable Indians could with relative ease acquire guns (or stay in possession thereof), an extremely rigorous and expensive licensing procedure made it almost impossible for most blacks, except for a few headmen and important chiefs (quirkily enough, not even the Kikuyu Tribal Police - the ones who shot and arrested Dedan Kimathi, whereas white KR and KP only arrived after the fact - at the time were issued firearms permits, they operated in a legal no-man's-land).

And this state has basically persisted until today. Not yet uhuru.


2. What we need, in my opinion, is:

a) A quicker procedure with fewer hurdles to jump over. Mayber even higher hurdles, but less and more equitable ones. Presently, one has to go through so many instances and multi-headed collegial bodies. So many palms to grease... so many chai to be poured out.

b) The issuance of a licence should not be a class (or, indirectly though, a race) issue. Everybody who is qualified and has a valid reason for owning a gun, should be allowed to do so.

c) High licensing fees should not be an obstacle that allow only upper-middle class and upper class the access to self-protection that police cannot offer !

d) Unlike today, a certificate of proficieny and the passing of a (brief and fair) shooting and law test should be a must before the issuance of a firearms certificate. Nobody should be allowed to own and carry a gun, who has not previously shown that she knows how and when to use it (with the possible exception of mere historical collectors).

Alexander Eichener

...
written by aeichener , March 19, 2007

On 2nd January 2007, Abdul Maka Mzee was appointed new Chief Firearms Licensing Officer.
http://www.kenyalaw.org/KenyaG...title=2085

He succeeded to Peter Achuka Ingolani, who had in turn succeeded the longtime CFLO Stephen Ole Mpesha, who has held the post for over a decade.

I have met and spoken Mr. Mzee in January 2007 in his office. He was - understandably in a new position - totally non-committal yet as to questions of policy and practice, but my personal impression was favourable. He seems more of a career police officer than a bureaucrat, having before been the Western Provincial Police Officer, having taken a course at National Defence College in 2002, before that he was assistant commissioner at Coast provincial police headquarters, Mombasa, and previously Malindi police boss.
Talking with me, he stated with convincing firmness that licenses do not depend upon him (but upon the previous statements from OCS/OCPD and the District and Provincial Security Committees), and that files usually stay not longer on his desk than one day.

Alexander

...
written by aeichener , March 19, 2007

My first answer to you was erased by little red men living in the forest of my keyboard. *insert curse here*

That's why I only posted a comparatively dry personal notice. Since I am an advocate, you can expect me to write a bit more on the law and procedure (where in one important respect I shall diverge from your take).

PS: Nice and cute nickname that you chose. In US parlance, it would be an almost exclusively feminized adjective, but I'll continue to treat you as a gender-neutral entity, although I think that more women should own firearms in Kenya. More on that musing later, too.

Alexander

say no to guns..
written by Sassy , March 19, 2007

Most would say for self defence, which I think is a valid reason.
But no matter why you own a gun, gun ownership is a very serious and full-time responsibility. Almost as many people die from gunfire each year as die from Motor Vehicle Drivers. Both a driver and a gun holder are licenced. So is a firearm dealer and a pharmacist or chemist, but the consequences caused by irresponisble use or carelessness is solely your responsibility. EG. If I go to a chemist and buy medicine prescribed by a doctor, I am instructed to take the medicine accordingly, but If i decide to ignore the instructions by both the doctor and a pharmist, i will suffer the consequeses. The same aplies to a motor vehicle driver and a gun holder. Slightly more than half of all gun deaths are suicides, while the rest are accidental deaths and homicides. Teenagers, young adults and the elderly are at greatest risk for gun suicide. And, in most non-suicide gun deaths, the victim and the shooter are family members, friends or acquaintances. Statistics clearly show that your own gun is much more likely to injure or kill you or a family member or friend than an intruder.

The decision to own a gun should be made carefully and with an understanding of how the decision could affect your own well-being and that of your family and community.

Should you decide to become a gun owner, protect yourself and those you love. As many as half of gun deaths and injuries and much gun theft can be prevented by practicing safe gun ownership and storage.

There are also rules to follow to ensure proper gun handling and storage to avoid unnecessary injury or accidents:-
Responsible gun ownership means learning and practicing behaviors that will help prevent needless injury, death and theft.First, Record the serial number of your gun. Then Check with your local police department to learn the laws about carrying or transporting guns outside of your home. Your licenced Dealer can provide this information to you as well. For your on good, take a gun safety course and learn how to use and care for your gun. Through a good safety course you will learn the parts of the gun, how to load and unload it, the safety features, how to safely care for a gun, and how to safely handle, aim and fire a gun. Your dealer should be able to provide or refer u to someone who provides such a service. You MUST Practice safe gun storage. NEVER allow children or teens to handle a gun. It is very advisable for you tot take time to know your gun's standard safety features and use them! Always handle your gun as if it were loaded.
Load your gun only when you are ready to fire it. Clean and inspect the gun regularly and carefully and check your gun twice before you clean it to be sure that it is unloaded. Also, when cleaning your gun, never leave the are. It should be in your view at all times. Do not, infact NEVER try to fix a gun yourself if it breaks. You must dispose of all ammunition properly. Contact your local police for assistance in disposing of ammunition -and never throw it in the trash. One important rule is never show off with your gun or talk about it at a party. When you are given a licence, you are given a licence for a CONCELALED weapon.

Storing your gun is also very vital and here are some storage tips:
It is your responsibility to keep your gun out of the hands of those who, deliberately or accidentally, may misuse it.Remember to alwayslock your gun. Guns should be stored unloaded, uncocked and securely locked out of sight or reach to minimize the risk that they will be used by unauthorized others such as children, teens, burglars, or the mentally ill or emotionally disturbed. Never leave your gun in your vehicle. Remember that when the magazine is removed from a semi-automatic hand gun, there still may be a bullet in the chamber. Check the chamber to be sure it is empty. Keep the keys to the lock that secures your gun on your key chain and with you at all times. Keep keys out of reach of children and teens. Store ammunition locked up separately from your gun and away from moisture and heat. Please Do not store your gun or ammunition with valuables that are likely to be stolen. Please, please Never store your gun under a bed, mattress or in an unlocked bedroom drawer.

Methods to lock your gun include the use of one of the following:

Trigger Lock. Trigger locks can be purchased for most guns. The lock between the trigger guard and the trigger makes it difficult to fire the gun until the trigger lock is removed with a key. Never use a trigger lock on a loaded gun. There are no manufacturing standards for trigger locks-be sure to choose a sturdy, well made model.

Padlock. Putting a padlock around the "window" in the frame of a revolver where the cylinder has been disarmed by swinging it out makes it impossible to fire. Do not place a padlock behind the gun's trigger. This method is unreliable and does not work for all guns.

Cable lock. A gun will not fire when a cable lock is used to stop the cylinder of a revolver from closing, or when the cable is fed through the barrel of a revolver or semi-automatic pistol. The cable can also be locked around a heavy object that won't move so that the gun cannot be taken.

Gun Safe. A gun safe or lock box provides the additional advantage of keeping firearms out of sight. To be effective they must be made of sturdy, hard to penetrate materials such as heavy gauge steal and have a strong locking mechanism.

If you adhere to all these, I dont see why owning a Gun can be so dangerous as u put it Mboch....

Gun Control
written by SASSY :P , March 19, 2007

FOR ONCE I AGREE WITH U!!!! More women should own firearms in kenya.

Say NO to guns!
written by Mboch , March 19, 2007

I never imagined Kenyans can be so pro-gun ownership. Good lord! I know Kenya, presently, is a hell hole where gun crimes are rife, but should the instintive need to feel safe drive Kenyans to own guns for protection purposes.? I don't think that should be the case.

I think, owning a gun in Kenya should not become or even remotely be made to become a choice or a right. My strongest belief is that, a well trained armed responed unit of firearm officers is the way out in our present gun-crime méléé. ( am NOT endorsing the pre-historic shoot to kill policy) Better policing does lower crime, gun crimes included.

I would personally walk the street or sleep easy, at night, knowing the only persons certified to handle guns are professional fire arm officers, but not with every other licenced person around me.
My biggest worry is the indiscipline of most Kenyans and thier infinity to break the law. If Kenyans were encouraged to own guns en masse it wouldn't be long before the menace of their misuse would follow suit. Given, for example, most motor vehicle drivers in Kenya are licenced vehicle users, but the road menace and indiscipline is so rampant, it only beggers believe! Jumping red lights, undertaking, driving on pedestrian walk ways...... the driver is highest in the pecking order when it comes to road usage, rules or no rules. I can see the same indscipline spilling over to those licenced to own guns, knowing only afew would exercise self-discpline to gun usage and adhere or stick to the gun laws.

Therefore the only gun policy Kenyans should be gunning for, is a NO guns policy, anything else is meddling with trouble.


Having a licensing firearms department is a waste of money which would be put to better use in hiring and training armed officers who would protect us effectively and safely.

Guns are Evil
written by emmo opoti , March 20, 2007

This is so tiresome, some people with no conception of what gun-crime is masturbating themselves silly thinking they have got the panacea for Kenyan crime.

First off, gun crime constitutes onlu a very tiny proportion of present violent robberies in Kenya. It does seem to get reported a lot more, but I am sure there's six muggings at the end of a blunt piece of glass, to every single one at the end of a gun.

The second phenomenon we are forgetting, is that a healthy proportion of gun crime in Kenya is carried out using licensed fire-arms. Whether these are stolen or loaned out from the security services os neither here nor there. What it evinces is proof that the mere presence of guns in Kenya, all other conditions remaining the same, is fuel to the fire.

No one here, not even Providence itself (if you subscribe to the Protestant persuasion) can tell when an armed man is going to use his gun as an offensive weapon. In a state like ours, where the social contract is torn and its pieces in the garbage bins at State House, Parliament and the Courts, there is little reason to see why an increase in the supply of guns will not lead to an increase in crime.

Indeed, at best it will lead to criminals raiding people's homes specifically to raid them of their guns.

The only remedy for Kenya's predicament is a total abandonment of the atrocious Anglo-Saxon model and an adoption of a social democratic one. Before the libertarians rip into me, look at the results in Ireland.

The dangers of a disarmed coun
written by Sassy , March 20, 2007

This article is an excerpt from an edition of WorldNetDaily.

I don't often write about the same subject twice in a week, but I received a pro-gun/pro-safety response from an interesting fellow last Thursday after I wrote a column about the absurdity of disarming all Americans. I thought readers would find it useful in making their case that the gun issue really does revolve around safety, not just rights. This is his message:

"Just read your article on Maryland's attorney general wanting to ban handguns for most. Your conclusions are correct. "We have lived for a number of years in Kenya. There ALL guns are banned, including toy guns that look like guns. The only exception is for small bore shotguns for bird hunting, which are owned by a select few. These guns must be stored in the local police station armory. They can be checked out only during hunting season. It takes an act of parliament to get shells.

"Yet in Kenya any criminal that wants one can get a gun.

"My wife and a friend were robbed at gunpoint near Mombassa. Their vehicle was taken also and they were left standing on the side of the road. As they were walking along they heard shots. The same crooks who had just robbed them, robbed and killed a tourist down the road. And this is in a nation where the police go around with automatic weapons.

"They (the police), by the way, shoot to kill all the time. I worked as a pilot and the airport had armed police everywhere and lots of 'security.' One day, in front of our hangar, a Kenyan made the mistake of touching the policeman's rifle. He died for that mistake, right there in the parking lot. One night in Nairobi, next to my house, a person was lurking in a nearby empty lot. The police came and blew him away with automatic rifle fire. Shoot first and no questions, now or later.

"Make no mistake, when only the police have guns, no one is safe. But even wanton killing by police does not deter crime. The only safety is when you're at home and behind locked bars. Bars everywhere, doors, windows, gates, everywhere. We had to have a security guard, armed with a machete, and a locked gate and wall around our house. Day and night. Terrible way to live.

"And there is still no safety. There are home invasions there too, where 20 or 30 thugs come with wrecking bars and break into houses. Happens all the time. The police for the most part had no cars for transportation. Call 999 (911) and if the phone happened to be working, the response would be on foot or by public bus.

"Another friend was robbed once, during the day. The police came and when they were standing in line for the bus to go back to the stationhouse they noticed someone standing there in line also, with the loot they recognized from the same robbery they came to investigate. The person started to run, so they blew him away too. Our friend felt real bad someone had to die over mere 'stuff.'

"I am a gun owner and don't like the NRA, but when they say, 'when guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns,' they are correct. Then, no one is safe."

licence to carry a spear
written by magothe , March 20, 2007

While we are at it, why don't we all get licences to carry spears, poison, bombs etc.
Another stupid and unoriginal topic-tell me something new!

...
written by aeichener , March 20, 2007

I will tell you something new, Magothe. Kenya did actually know sword licenses: colonial DOs filled them out, signed and stamped them routinely, without even as much as looking at the applicants, because they - very commendably - felt it was not their job nor their right to interfere with an old and ingrained (and very reasonable) tradition as pedantic oppressors (source: Michael Blundell's memoirs, very worthy of reading by the way).

Alexander

...
written by aeichener , March 20, 2007

Many interesting topics have been brushed here, controversially, and I sure would like to attend to some of them in more extent.

But first, I will call to my memory the original question:
Should firearms licensing procedures in Kenya be reworked and streamlined - and how? How should the future procedures for a firearms certificate and temporary permit look like?

Sassy answered:
"However, I do agree that the process is too long. (...) My take on this is that all applications should be made directly to the CLO. all these channels - ma police stations... tend to be tricky sometimes. (...) In short, the CLO's office should come up with a shorter, and more efficient way of how these approvals can be done."

Alexander's take:_
The first question is of course whether one wants a central licensing authority (with all the advantages but also drawbacks that this presents), or a local/regional authority (district, province). Seeing the Kenyan system of administration as it is, a central solution (as before) is probably the most reasonable one. With a bit of donor money, they could easily be computerized.

Secondly, one of the main present problems - as the CFLO also candidly averred to me - is the long procedure of the application having to go through the District Security Committee and the Provincial Security Committee, after having passed through OCS and OCDP.

These committees - which I feel are altogether superfluous and not very functional in their present form, an old inheritance from colonial administrative structures - do "sit" only in larger time spaces. That alone makes for several months of procrastination. Secondly, as they are collegial bodies, there are many representatives sitting in such a committee, so there are (potentially) many tea cups to receive some chai. The multi-headed, several-instance structure is an open invitation to corruption. Also, the procedure is whimsical and not at all transparent.

As to the police, I feel that there is no other way. In spite of all the problems that plague our underpaid utumishi kwa wote gals and guys (whose housing conditions are much worse than your average Mukuru kwa Njenga or Kibera slum dwelling, and whose families have zero insurance coverage when officers are killed), the local police are the one who are best informed about you and your criminal history (or absence thereof), and who could best assess the local security situation. The CFLO would in any case have to contact them later, and to ask for their statements, so it may be reasonable to process the applications as well directly through them.

Alexander

rabble rouser
written by kamau , March 20, 2007

Gun control to me is addressing the symptom and not the cause. Its intresting that a country like Switzerland which has a much higher rate of hand gun ownership has significantly less hand gun related crime than the US which has enacted some very though gun control measures.

I don't believe that Gun control is going to quell crime rates in Kenya; criminals will still get their guns and when they can't get them will revert to using machetes. Personally I would like to own a tech 9 so that when the motherf@*k*rs tries to break into my house I have something waiting for them.

We should focus our efforts on education and economic growth and curbing the corruption that makes it impossible to do anything in real constructive in that country.

Gun Control
written by Sassy , March 20, 2007

I agree with what some of you have stated. Here is a little bit of a highlight. The rules on that site http://www.kenyapolice.go.ke/tips.asp is not even a quarter of what lies under the 'Firearms Act Cap 114 Laws of Kenya' booklet. However, I do agree that the process is too long. Basically, before you are even sold a firearm, you need to apply for the licence from your local police station and you will obviously you wil have to go through a few 'I am sorry to say' "hungry" police officials.

The cost of applying for a licence is Kshs 2000. FLAT. If you are asked to pay more than that and you agree to do so it's because you have allowed it and you are contributing to the pathetic bribery schemes in the country.

Once your application has been approved by your local police station and officials, your forms are then fowarded to the Chief licensing officer in Nairobi. This is mostly done through a dealer who is satisfied that the appropriate authorities have approved your application.

The success of your application therefore lies at the mercy of the CLO (chief licencing officer). It should not take more than a month for your licence to be issued if you do not qualify.

My take on this is that all applications should be made directly to the CLO. all these channels - ma police stations... tend to be tricky sometimes. A cop can decide that he will not apporove your application just because he doesn't like you besides all your qualifications, or approve it to a burglar... for instance... the country is therefore in doom. That is why we have so much insecurity in the country. Yes the CLO has the final say, but remember your local police station plays a big role in the approval of your application too.

In short, the CLO's office should come up with a shorter, and more efficient way of how these approvals can be done.

Ok, now besides all that, after the CLO has approved your application, you will receive a letter from him and a 'temporary permit' (one page) that will allow you to buy a gun. Your licence (booklet) should come about two to three weeks after your TP has been issued.

Note that your licenced firearm dealer will not hand over the gun to you until your licence is sent to him by the CLO. Your gun is then entered into your licence and every amount of ammunition you purchase is entered into your firearm licence too. This is where accountability comes in. The difference between a burgler and a licenced gun holder is that a burgler cannot account for his gun nor how he has used his ammo. A licensed holder can do this, e.g maybe he used his ammo for training purposes at the range... etc.

Well I hope this has brought some sort of insight. Please feel free to ask any more questions or clarifications.. I know u have some...

Gun control
written by Sassy , March 20, 2007

I hear you Alexander, but is that really in practice? I must agree that CLO Abdul Mzee is trying to do his best to eradicate crime and illegal arms. I do agree that with all those credentials that he may be just the man for the job, and I also agree that the recent burn of illegal arms MAY greatly reduce crime. But are we really solving the problem here? Why are all TP's being revoked? Why are all previous persons who applied for permits and were issued with TP's have to re-apply? The files stay at his desk for not longer than a day? is this really in practice or is this what you are being told? And yes you are right when u say that he seems more of a 'career police officer' than a bureucrat. Maybe that's what he does best, but for him to be able to suceed in his now, new career, he needs to learn Bureaucracy. I love the guy, I have nothing against him. But I think he needs alot of consulting to do with previous CLO's...

facts
written by sassy , March 20, 2007

Check it out...

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

guns
written by noel , March 21, 2007

Making guns more accessible than they already are in some parts of Kenya is definitely not an area we want to rush into!! Already in parts of the capital there are guns for hire for as little as 500 shillings.
Possesion of a higher number of legally obtained firearms does not make us safer at all.Instead there will be a lot of trigger happy people who will make many a "mistake" or a mistake. We need to reduce the number of firearms that are readilly available.

...
written by Patrick Gathara , March 21, 2007

The citizens give the government a monopoly on violence in return for the government assuring them of their safety. If the state cannot keep its part of the deal, then I do not see why we should continue to keep ours.

As for gun ownership leading to an explosion in crime, that is hogwash. Africans (same as every other peoples) have for millennia privately owned weapons without their societies degenerating into dens of crime. The Maasai today still carry the very lethal rungus and simis. Every household contains a multitude of potentially lethal artefacts such as knives. That has contributed nothing whatsoever to the soaring rates of violent crime.

...
written by Patrick Gathara , March 21, 2007

The citizens only allow a government's monopoly on violence in return for an assurance of personal security from the state. If the latter cannot keep up its part of the deal, then there is no reason why the monopoly should continue.

And it is hogwash to argue that more guns will lead to more crime. Study after study has shown this to be false. Africans (and ever other peoples) have for millennia owned weapons privately without converting their societies into hovels of crime. The Maasai today publicly carry their spears, rungus and simis without these being a danger to anyone. A typical modern household is brimming with potentially lethal artefacts, knives being just the most obvious example. Yet we still have a relatively peaceful and safe country. The threat to our security comes not from the citizens being exercising to own guns, but from the few who have malevolent intentions and find nothing standing in their way.

...
written by Patrick Gathara , March 21, 2007

The citizens only allow a government's monopoly on violence in return for an assurance of personal security from the state. If the latter cannot keep up its part of the deal, then there is no reason why the monopoly should continue.

And it is hogwash to argue that more guns will lead to more crime. Study after study has shown this to be false. Africans (and ever other peoples) have for millennia owned weapons privately without converting their societies into hovels of crime. The Maasai today publicly carry their spears, rungus and simis without these being a danger to anyone. A typical modern household is brimming with potentially lethal artefacts, knives being just the most obvious example. Yet we still have a relatively peaceful and safe country. The threat to our security comes not from the citizens being exercising to own guns, but from the few who have malevolent intentions and find nothing standing in their way.

Praise and Shame
written by sassy , March 21, 2007

:lol: That is true, the ammo bit sucks but what i meant was that and may i use ur words:- ..a firearm dealer should not rent out his guns to the highest bidding robber...ok, maybe i didnt express myself too clearly. Will reply shortly I have a whole load of work lying on my desk that needs attending to.

and LOL: someone should educate:
(Pet peeve: Kenyans who speak and write of "bullets" when they mean cartridges. For cryin' out loud !!)

Bullet = a solid projectile propelled by a firearm and is normally made from metal

Cartidge =A cylindrical, usually metal casing containing the primer and charge of ammunition for firearms such as a casing fitted with bullets....

re: Gun Control
written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

Note that your licenced firearm dealer will not hand over the gun to you until your licence is sent to him by the CLO. Your gun is then entered into your licence and every amount of ammunition you purchase is entered into your firearm licence too.

Hello Sassy, here is a (true) anecdote for a you, which I published in the comments section of another thread. Just scroll down for the "Armenian Brothers" (comment of 19.03.2007):


Alexander

re: Praise and Shame
written by sassy , March 21, 2007

The citizens only allow a government's monopoly on violence in return for an assurance of personal security from the state. If the latter cannot keep up its part of the deal, then there is no reason why the monopoly should continue.

And it is hogwash to argue that more guns will lead to more crime. Study after study has shown this to be false. Africans (and ever other peoples) have for millennia owned weapons privately without converting their societies into hovels of crime. The Maasai today publicly carry their spears, rungus and simis without these being a danger to anyone. A typical modern household is brimming with potentially lethal artefacts, knives being just the most obvious example. Yet we still have a relatively peaceful and safe country. The threat to our security comes not from the citizens being exercising to own guns, but from the few who have malevolent intentions and find nothing standing in their way.

Very well said Patrick.

Hello Sassy, here is a (true) anecdote for a you, which I published in the comments section of another thread. Just scroll down for the "Armenian Brothers" (comment of 19.03.2007):


Alexander

Alexander, I hear you. And Must agree that all firearm dealers must adhere to and remain firm on the rules and regulations of the firearms act.

...
written by editor , March 21, 2007

von Freiburg,
Please ensure that your hyperlinks are used in this fashion


[url+http://name of my link here]osiris is god. Replace the + sign with an =.

When the url is pasted in the normal manner[url)http://name of link here, it distorts the width of the page.

Alternatively, shorten it at tinyurl.

editor.

re: re: Praise and Shame
written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

Alexander, I hear you.

Glad to know that. In due obsequience and reverence I hope? :lol:

And must agree that all firearm dealers must adhere to and remain firm on the rules and regulations of the firearms act.

Hrmmph. I don't quite understand what you wish to express with this innuendo? Maybe you would like to be clearer.

Of course, a firearms dealer should not rent out his guns to the highest bidding robber; for such is the traditional job of police (ahem...).

As to the regulations, much of them are plain rubbish. Just look at the ammunition amounts. Anybody who really uses a gun, will fire not less than 50 shots in a training session (once monthly at least). And I buy ammo by the 1000, not by the 10.

(Pet peeve: Kenyans who speak and write of "bullets" when they mean cartridges. For cryin' out loud !!)

Praise and Shame
written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

Brilliant contribution, Patrick. Succinctly to the points. Can't be expressed better.

Another aspect:
There are many people responsible for the bad security situation. A good number of the culprits are situated in plush, comfy NGO offices.

Also, it's government people like Peter Eregae (National Focal Point on Small Arms), just to quote one other example, are who are making this country *really* unsafe.

And not the poor 25-year-old Turkana widow with an AK-47 slung over her shoulder, who guards her few remaining cattle and herself against rustlers and rapists !

Alexander

Private Security Sector
written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

Here is an interesting report on the Kenyan security sector:

a thriving industry with a lot of exploitation by the way.

I do not like it very much, but the footnotes make for very instructive reading.

Alexander

...
written by sassy , March 21, 2007

Q: Am I patient enough to undergo a long and cumbersome and often administrative procedure, which is apt to frustrate me a number of times?
A: I have already gone through that not so amusing process!

Q: Can I resist the temptation to bribe?
A: the question is can u?

Q: Do I have the money to pay the very high price for a legal handgun in Kenya?
A: I already own one so i guess that should answer the question

Q: Will (not can, but will) I spend at least 3 hours every month for target practice and fast-draw training on the shooting range?
A: I practice every day

Q: Since I cannot child-proof my gun, can and will I take the pedagogic effort to gun-proof my child?
A: Consider that done

...
written by Ssembonge , March 21, 2007

A while back I considered buying a gun. So I signed up for gun safety and target practice classes with the local park rangers. I must say after the first class and target practice I gave up on the idea of owning a gun rack and driving a Dodge Durango.

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written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

Have reworked and added to my questions, Sassy.

Personal comment:
I just came back from the aforementioned IWA in Nuernberg (Europe's largest and the world's second largest firearms-related fair), which by profession I have to attend every year. Brought back a number a fat filled plastic bags with catalogues and flyers, for my reference collection, 20-25 kgs I would say. As every year (what a toil!).

When I am not furthering the cause of Kenya tea (and in that process am kicking washenzi's balls or ovaries with delight), not drinking wine, having good sex, or reading poetry, firearms make up good part of my civil profession.

Alexander

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written by sassy , March 21, 2007

SHOW OFF!!! And on a very sweet and nice note(topped with sugar and honey, and anything else you want...except for sex of course :!: )Would u like to share those catalogues and flyers :?: :?: :lol: and yes, firearms, is a daily part of my life and hobby too...

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written by sassy , March 21, 2007

Hey! buddy! SSembonge, U chickened out??? too bad...ur loss though...

re:
written by aeichener , March 21, 2007

SHOW OFF!!!

Kenyan English: "flossing". :wink:

Yes, I can gladly share some of the doubles. Contact me via the PM feature of the board.

And since this is not a forum or message board, I must necessarily add some things of substance:

Sportive shooting is undeveloped on the African continent; just look at the ISSF results tables of the continental championships (they are on the Web), and see how *few* participants there are.

There are not many African countries with any remotely "professional" firearms sector. We have been discussing Kenya, then of course there is South Africa (ZA "Impala" hunting bullets are the latest fad in Austria and Germany) and Egypt. The only black buyer on the IWA was the same gentleman from Burkina Faso whom I had already seen last year . The world is a small village...

Alexander

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written by sassy , March 21, 2007

:lol: LOL!!! I love ur sense of humour I surely will do that. U want to see more black buyers? try going to turkey for the exhibitions there...you will be suprised.

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written by sassy , March 21, 2007

ATI Kenyan English... I cant get over this.... :lol:

Ask yourself honestly
written by aeichener , March 22, 2007

This is a draft. A musing in creation stage. Be lenient. Kick it, punch it, whip it into shape. .

So you think you could or would have a firearm for the defence of yourself and your next?
Well, ask yourself the following questions before. Openly and candidly:

- Am I patient enough to undergo a long and cumbersome and often unreasonable procedure, which is apt to frustrate me a number of times? Will I re-apply if refused the first time?

- Can I resist the temptation to bribe?

- Do I have the money to pay the very high price for a legal handgun in Kenya?

- Do I have the stamina to get read in a completely new field, and make my own educated decision, instead of blindly relying on a dealer's more or less knowledgeable recommendation? ("Just take this one, I'll make you a special price, and will even drop in 50 boolits for balance" "No, a 9 millimeter is nothing for a lady like you! Take this nice Browning Baby in .22 short" "You need a powerful handgun, Sir, that can easily shoot through car doors and will also stop a charging buffalo. This new short-barrelled Smith & Wesson with titanium frame in .500 caliber is just what you need, fresh from the IWA in Nuernberg!")

- Will (not can, but will) I spend at least 3 hours every month for target practice and fast-draw training on the shooting range?

- Since a gun in a handbag or a car's glove compartment is a liability and not an asset, am I willing to carry it concealed, in a proper holster, and to undergo the time and effort to choose the best-suited gun and holster for my needs?

- Since I cannot child-proof my gun, can and will I take the pedagogic effort to gun-proof my child?

- Will I be able to possibly shoulder the weight of having maimed and maybe having killed an almost-innocent wannabe rapist, mugger or murderer; instead of being raped, maimed, AIDS-infected or killed myself?

Business developments
written by aeichener , March 22, 2007

This is actually a fascinating new avenue, Sassy, that you have inadvertantly (or advertantly, as I of course hope) have opened with your last comment. You referred to Turkey. There one can see a very interesting development from a business viewpoint, one that can also be of comparative interest for Kenyan manufacturers in general (and not limited to weaponry!).

Turkey in the past had very limited arms-making capacity. There was the government arsenal at Kirikkale (I do not have the specific Turkish "i without a dot" letter on my keyboard), there was a second factory (ASFA), both of them making bolt-action rifles of Mauser type (of which I have two), and that was it. The arsenals then were merged after World War II into a big statal enterprise, MKE, which still exists today in form of a comprehensive armaments parastatal. And a few craftsmen- gunsmiths made frugal, utilitarian shotguns mostly for local hunters, on a jua kali level.

That has rapidly changed in the last 10 or 15 years. MKE still exists, still makes G-3 and MP-5 automatic rifles and submachineguns, and some rather mediocre handguns that look like they escaped from a toy store, but numerous new private enterprises have sprung up:

The shotgun manufacturers have expanded (all of them were at the IWA), have caught up on quality, and are exporting doubles (SxS, O/U), pumpguns and semiautos all over the world, mostly selling their products under foreign dealers' or distributors' brandnames.

A number of handgun manufacturers have also opened since 1990, presumably due to a legal liberalization. And modern manufacturing technology (with modular automatized CNC machinery) makes it a lot easier and cheaper to produce, without needing an experienced workforce of crafts(wo)men. So, this IWA roamed with Turkish pistols, and they even had a special small joint Turkish catalogue. These handguns were not exactly beauties, but sturdy and probably decent value for money. Most were uninspired half-copies of existing designs, for which patent protection might have expired.

Now my point is the following: Turkey has now rapidly (and unexpectedly) reached a point where Brazilian armsmaking was in the mid-1980s (they had a smilar development). Today, Brazil is a global player, and their handguns as well as their ammunition are a least as important and as good as most US products, where the sector is actually struggling and declining. The Brazilian "Taurus" revolvers and pistols are almost as good as Colt was and as Smith & Wesson is (there is not much quality difference anymore), and the formerly cheap "Rossi" revolvers and rifles are decent middle-class now.

Why am I relating this, and am dropping names in which many of you might not be too interested? Very simple: the chronological examples of Brazil and Turkey show, how either second-world country was able - within less than two decades - to develop a successful and flourishing special industrial sector, taking advantage of a globalizing economy.

I do not suggest that Kenya takes up any of this (the only Kenyan manufacturer, namely the Eldoret ordnance factory, an ammo-making plant, has been plagued by problems which are presumably due to the fact that they had run out of calibrated copper crushers for their Belgian pressure-measuring equipment, and thus resorted to merely "estimating" pressure; an unsafe procedure in any case {pun intended}, but a deadly error when it comes to manufacturing 9mm Para ammunition, which is notoriously difficult to keep within acceptable pressure ranges, from a loader's standpoint).

Now, I am not holding my breath waiting for another nyayo car (*yawn*). Nor do I expect that Bata's renowned quality (ahem, shades of boarding school, anyone?) will de-throne Manolo Blahnik or Ludwig Reiter shoes in international high fashion markets.
But I think that it would easily possible for astute Kenyan manufacturers to go beyond the traditional "tea + coffee + mixed horticulture + pseudo-maasai souvenirs" range of products, and export manufactured goods abroad, instead of now seeing Kenya flooded with cheap Chinese junk in every sector of the economy.
Don't you think so?

Alexander

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written by sassy , March 22, 2007

It is true that Turkey has developped well over the years and I personally find it cheaper to shop in Turkey than in Kenya...(really depends on what you are shopping for). The firearms there are remarkably cheap compared to the kenyan market. But if you ask me, I would rather spend my money in Turkey, Thailand, India and (just) Maybe Brazil.

Where to buy what
written by aeichener , March 22, 2007

*Scratches his head*
What are we now speaking about, pray? Best shopping sources? Tobacco in Turkey, guns in Brazil, beer in Germany, dildoes in Dubai (no joke, a Kenyan lady of my acquaintance had a girlfriend get her one from there, and is quite happy with it), jewelry in Switzerland, cosmetic surgery in South Africa?

It is true that many Kenyans who have the opportunity (many? rather small strata of upper middle class and upper class, realistically speaking) prefer to shop abroad. There are many jokes about the well-to-do of entire African countries meeting in the same shops in Switzerland, though I guess they are a bit apocryphal.

What is true is that there are few if any reliable Kenyan sources for higher-quality consumptive goods. Many people buy perfumes in the Emirates, as well as electronics, expensive appliances, clothing.

And is there any decent wine store in Nairobi? Hardly. One cannot even find Kenyan wine in city restaurants (not in the Tamarind at least, nor in the Stanley's, maybe in Cellar restaurant), although Yatta produced a surprisingly good white wine in the past until they went cheap (and now they churn out an execrable tetra-pak of kumi-kumi quality, for half the price of the old bottle, and 1/10 of the quality, a beverage in which there are rather few grapes I am afraid).

But Kenyans, as they are, will rather pay dearly for the cheapest European and Chilean wines (*shudder*), than buy a good local product when and where it exists - sigh !

Now, back to guns: you have correctly mentioned that the prices in Kenya are quite high (maybe for good reasons, but the customer base is just small for true competition, it's probably different in Uganda), so one might prefer - if there is the chance - to choose (and try) abroad and to have it mailed to Kenya, of course after duly applying for an import permit. But you know, I am always a bit reluctant to recommend such "buy abroad!" solutions, as convenient and necessary as they often are, in every field of life. How do we expect to uplift our own economy if we spend all money abroad? :?:

Alexander

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written by Sassy , March 22, 2007

And why not Alexander? If I can afford to shop abroad, why not? But that doesnt mean that I shall abandon my own country's economy by not buying our products...some of the just suck!!!(no offence) and buy Wine in Kenya? No Way! I have never had 'good'wine in Kenya.

Back to Gun's....A certain firearm dealer mentioned to me that one gun sold would enablehim to ourchase ten more abroad...pretty interesting dont u think?

But Sassy
written by Nekessa , March 22, 2007

Alex just pointed out that there is good Kenyan wine.

One cannot even find Kenyan wine in city restaurants (not in the Tamarind at least, nor in the Stanley's, maybe in Cellar restaurant), although Yatta produced a surprisingly good white wine in the past until they went cheap (and now they churn out an execrable tetra-pak of kumi-kumi quality, for half the price of the old bottle, and 1/10 of the quality, a beverage in which there are rather few grapes I am afraid).... .

See, your comment, Sassy, rather flippant and dismissive of Kenyan products is very disturbing, not because it is unique, but because it is common, especially with Kenyan "haves". It is in this same vein that we had a discussion a few weeks ago on Raila's foreign tailor .

This here is the crux of the matter:

How do we expect to uplift our own economy if we spend all money abroad?

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written by Sassy , March 22, 2007

Not even the Cellar Restaurant has the best wine Nekessa, I often have social gatherings there and i have tried their wine. Above average I must say but not the best. As for spending money abroad, I am not spending ALL my money abroad, just some of it to purchase some 'good quality' products that cannot be found in Kenya. Kenya's economy will only grow when our hungry politicians, MP's and goverment officials start practising effecient financial procedures

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written by aeichener , March 28, 2007

Sassy: my comment about Kenyan economy, buying abroad and Kenyan wines was not meant to criticize your personal spending or saving pattern. So, please do not pout and sulk. Nekessa - incidentally - has understood me quite correctly.

Of course, one cannot easily (or at all!) satisfy even upper-middle class consumption needs in Kenya. I have given various examples. But one must ask the same question the other way around, and that now VERY nicely ties in with the present parallel thread in this paper on investments and wooing investors:

Would any retail store that offers good-quality specialized merchandise in Nairobi, Kisumu, Mombasa or Nakuru, directly imported (and necessarily with some surcharge as compared e.g. to a French supermarket or a Hongkong electronics department store), would any such shop at all be sufficiently patronized with locals? Or wouldn't Kenyans still prefer to satisfy such buying needs of theirs in Dubai, Europe, the USA?

Lastly (back to the topic of guns), and staying with a very interesting observation of Sassy: "A certain firearm dealer mentioned to me that one gun sold would enable him to purchase ten more abroad... pretty interesting don't you think?"...
Gun prices vary extremely in the different countries of Europe. Germany - in spite of its strict firearms regulations - is by far the cheapest. Often, the same gun may cost 50 % or 100 % more in another country, e.g. France. Same is true for ammunition. Buying good-quality used handguns, rifles or shotgun there and selling them in Kenya at local "legal" retail prices could easily give one 500 % profit or more. After expenses, that is.

Alexander

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written by editor , April 02, 2007

Interestingly, the very same question has been also debated here in a blog, under the title "Solving insecurity - give us guns!", independent of us.

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written by Alexander , June 06, 2007

The present terrorizing onslauight of Mungiki and "Mungiki" has once again made the title question of this thread acute and pressing. See also the latest comments in the parallel thread "Just shooting".

Alexander

Defending oneself
written by aeichener , October 30, 2007

I am following up:
A chilling incident (rather: a blood-curdling incident) in the better-off Nairobean outskirts once again demonstrated in April how conveniently thugs can pursue their evil deeds without defence on part of the victims; and how easily a gun at home could have saved the victim (and his family, because the lightly veiled crime reports suggests that the hitmen did not part without raping the wife and the daughter and househelp of the victim: when you are doing hard work, you are entitled to some additional reward, they may have thought: "After killing him, the youthful gangsters terrorised Mrs Mugwanja, her daughter Jackline Wangui and a househelp.").

Link here

You may just google a quick search for the Kenya Airways captain who was on Tuesday night, 10th April 2007, followed all his way home from the airport, to Kamuguga area, near Zambezi in Kiambu district. The thugs then proceeded the break through the door in all leisure, enter and perambulate through the house, grab the victim, lead him to the bathroom and shoot him five times. If the captain had carried a handgun (or even if he had only had one at home, because he had far more than ample time to retrieve it from a gun safe), we would now have a couple of dead or wounded hitmen, and a much less traumatized (read: not raped) family.



Alexander

re: guns
written by InSidious , October 30, 2007

"well trained unit of fire arm officers"

do we have any of these in kenya? obviously not. and if they cannot protect you, who will. arm the population and stop panicing quorum. the same number of people are still chipping of crime. think outside the box that you have been exposed to. good people have more of a chance of survival armed than not. especially with the crime boom in kenya where all thugs have guns and by thugs i also mean the police. only the strongest survive and in this day and age, if you are not armed you fit into the minority group classified as the weak. yes, i say they should start arming the population and take some power away from the dubious, trigger happy and corrupt police force that we currently have.

Couldn't agree more!