Kibz & Ojinga to meet in the n
written by magothe , January 24, 2008

Apparently the aborted meeting is about to happen @ Harambee Hse very soon.
Maybe to sign an agreement...

Meeting confirmed
written by magothe , January 24, 2008

Reuters confirm Raila-Kibaki meeting

...
written by Kamale , January 24, 2008

Well the meeting took place and only three people were in that room; Annan, President Kibaki and Hon. Raila. All the aides were left out of the meeting.

When they came out, they both read prepared speeches. Raila and Annan used the "raia" microphones whilst Kibaki who nearly used the same microphones was quickly pushed to read from his presidential rostrum. The order of the speeches was Anna, Raila and finally Kibaki.

In Raila's speech, he only made one reference to Mheshimiwa Kibaki restating their desire for peace in the country.

When Kibaki spoke, he did not mention Raila or opposition in his speech, but constantly referred to everyone as Kenyans. In his speech, he restated that he was duly elected and sworn in as the president of Kenya. The rest of his speech constantly spoke of "my government". When he spoke of dialogue, he said that this will be within 'our' legal and constitutional framework - which is the same as telling his opponents to go to court, and that any deals must be within the law! In a way, he was reminding all and sundry that he was PRESIDENT and that position will not be negotiated.

It was therefore unsurprising that ODM in an evening media briefing 'attacked' Kibaki for referring to himself as President!!!

Kibaki is duly elected preside
written by Amina , January 24, 2008

I am sorry, but I don't see what the fuss is. Kibaki has been sworn in so that makes him president, whether there was rigging or not. Remember Moi rigged every election, and he was still President.

Now, does ODM still want Kibaki to step down? Do they want an interim government? Or do they want a unity government?

re: Kibaki is duly elected pre
written by Wuod Aketch , January 24, 2008

Well the meeting took place and only three people were in that room; Annan, President Kibaki and Hon. Raila. All the aides were left out of the meeting.

You mean Kalonzo was just listening behind the doors?
So you see how greediness and being without principles can hurt!!!
But what were these people doing in harambee house? Taking tea?
If there is a winner tonight, it is Kenya, followed closely by Raila. For Raila to bring out Kibaki to Harambee house, there must be some panic in state house.
What is making presidential usurper and impostor more cooperative? Is it the ODM menace of boycotting his friendly enterprises and financers?

ODM should keep on pushing, the breach is widening and soon opening.

Just listen to yourselves
written by mkosakabila , January 24, 2008

Amina and Wuod Aketch--I am soooo thankful that none of you is handling the mediation. Cant you just for a moment put aside your egos or delusions of grandeur and give this thing a chance?!

Who\'s playing games?
written by a guest , January 24, 2008

Woud,

If I correctly recall, it was Raila who said he cannot meet with Kibaki without mediators. It is Raila who refused to attend the meeting ODM was invited to at state house on Friday. It was Raila who refused to attend the last harambee house meeting after suprising kibaki with a statement to sign, even before dialogue had begun.

In this latest meeting, it was raila who picked a fight by referring to Kibaki as honourable, sutley but surely telling the world that he does not recognise him as president. He could have chosen not to refer to him directly.

So, who's playing games here?

...
written by john , January 25, 2008

I agree ..many kenyans are so petty and these politicians are too instead of getting down to the real issues they are stil busy arguing over who called who what..
we should now be addressing land and constitutional issues.Infact kibaki can keep his stolen presidency he should just be forced by kenyans and international community to address land and constitutional issues...these two are stupid

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

JOhn, we need more people like you. People seem to think that if they solve this election fiasco, things will be solved.

1. As Kenyans, we need to see the problem in the Rift Valley and as John says, deal with the land issues. Every election year (2002 will always be the exception.. it seems so long ago and a dream) has brought about clashes in the region. There is even violence between election years but our politicians have either ignored it or encouraged the violence.

2. People are talking about things (e.g. election re-runs) that I feel Kenya is not capable of doing. Our Constitution is a joke. Instead of trying to find quick-fix solutions we should already be putting our heads together so that what happened in Kenya NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. We need institutions that are strong and independent and that help check the politicians. If as a politician/leader you don't do you job to the satisfaction of the people, YOU ARE OUT! Kenya belongs to Kenyans and we decide who will lead us or who won't.

3. If you don't think our leaders are petty. Let me give you an example. Last week, both sides decided to reveal that they are taking the other to/filed claims with the ICC. They tried to make it sound like suddenly, the leaders in government will be hauled to the Hague or arrest warrants from the ICC will be calling for ODM leaders to be brought to Holland.

Under Article 17 of the Rome Statute (ICC's statute), the court only has jurisdiction when the state which does have it is unable or unwilling to try. Here, that would be Kenya. And it would have to be shown that the Kenyan courts does not/will not or cannot try the people responsible for the atrocities.

Another way it could get into the ICC: Case can be referred by another state party or the prosecutor or by the Security Council of the UN.

There are three crimes that come under ICC jurisdiction: war crimes (not in Kenya), genocide (despite reckless rhetoric, IS NOT IN KENYA!! what carelessness to use the word) and crimes against humanity (we have a case here due to the killings, looting, raping and police brutality). But we still have our own courts and police THAT SHOULD DEAL WITH US.

I am urging Kenyans to rise above the pettiness and grand-standing. Our problems have been exposed to the world and most importantly to ourselves. Great nations are built from how they respond to a crisis. This is our moment.

Who called himself what is nei
written by Prof. Baya Kobangoshe , January 25, 2008

What's the fuss? Hon Amollo and Hon Mwai K. are both MPs and they know it. Hon. Amollo know that Hon Mwai K is for now also the President of Kenya whether he says it or not for the cameras and the media. Kofi Anan didn't see what ODM is fussy about. He went a head and refered to his host as H.E President Mwai K.

If Hon. Amollo was serious, then he should have sat on the president's seat in Parliament. After all, he went if before President MK did.

The belief that the presidency was stollen from Hon. Amollo is only a speculation. The ECK boss, Kivuitu was categorical that he was not sure he knew who fairly won the presidency between President MK and Hon. Amollo. How on earth can Hon. Amollo then purport to have been the dejure president.

re: Kibaki is duly elected pre
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

I am sorry, but I don't see what the fuss is. Kibaki has been sworn in so that makes him president, whether there was rigging or not. Remember Moi rigged every election, and he was still President.

Now, does ODM still want Kibaki to step down? Do they want an interim government? Or do they want a unity government?

What we have to agree that riggging will not be allowed .If the stolen election is not nullified then we cannot allow this peace business to get on the way .

(...)

Point to ponder:
Do you think Museveni should enlighten Kibaki on what he did when the elections were stolen?

TruthBeTold, you've been warned at least once before that neither insults nor incitement are welcome here. This is your second warning. Ed.

re:
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

Under Article 17 of the Rome Statute (ICC's statute), the court only has jurisdiction when the state which does have it is unable or unwilling to try. Here, that would be Kenya. And it would have to be shown that the Kenyan courts does not/will not or cannot try the people responsible for the atrocities.

Another way it could get into the ICC: Case can be referred by another state party or the prosecutor or by the Security Council of the UN.

There are three crimes that come under ICC jurisdiction: war crimes (not in Kenya), genocide (despite reckless rhetoric, IS NOT IN KENYA!! what carelessness to use the word) and crimes against humanity (we have a case here due to the killings, looting, raping and police brutality). But we still have our own courts and police THAT SHOULD DEAL WITH US.

Hey the land clashes have been with us for so long and nobody has ever been tried. Since all the governments of the day have never even tried to bring the perpetrators to book then this should go to ICC.

Similarly peple are being killed because of their tribes (both by ODM supporters and the police) and we do not want to label it genocide.

Most genocides are only genocide after people have been killed and the matter is history

(...) Attempted justification of RV violence removed. Truth Be Told, see below. Ed.

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

Truth Be Told,

This is not going to the ICC. Read up on the court and see how their jurisdiction is defined. It is not a simple matter of whether it should go to the ICC. It has to follow certain rules. It is a long and hard process (see the ICC and UN's struggle to deal with Sudan and Northern Uganda!!).

Second, it is true what you say that Kenyan authorities has ignored it. But they can't do that now. The killings, evictions, arson and looting that has been taking place is unprecedented and pushed Kenya to the brink. It is threatening the stability of the Rift Valley, which is Kenya's bread basket. The government knows if they don't act to stem ALL the violence, it could have severe effects.

Third, there has not been genocide in Kenya. I am not saying this to sugar-coat anything. The definition is very specific. However, there have been crimes against humanity. Murder is such a crime. There is no justification for the violence. NONE AT ALL. People must have thought that targetting certain peoplw would bring about change. Wapi? And at this point, any killings that are still going on are not related to the election but is a bunch of opportunists that have seen the chance to cause havoc.

In fact the violence is taking the focus away from the election fiasco. If anybody thought that violence would pressure Kibaki to step down, that plan has backfired. It has moved the focus to bringing peace alone. Yet, we continue to ignore the land issues in the Rift Valley. My heart goes out to all my brothers and sisters that have lost their lives, those displaced and have lost all they have. The violence had no justification and no reason.

God bless Kenya

...
written by D , January 25, 2008

Truth,

The following article supports your argument that there are deeper problems in Rift Valley that are beyond this election!

Link here

Prayers
written by magothe , January 25, 2008

I say prayers, because I think if the situation was worse last few weeks, it'll get worse unless these two peeps can get their act together and bring peace. They'll stop to matter if can't do so now...

Anybody noticed something strange? 3 out of the 4 multiparty elections have involved the slaughtering of Kikuyus. 3 out of 4 elections have been rigged. Only one of them has involved post-election violence and riots. Some politicians need to bring a new style of politics and pull away from primitiveness.

Foot-in-mouth disease
written by aeichener , January 25, 2008

It is fairly undeniable - in my opinion - that Kibaki's speech was clumsy, daft and undiplomatic.
He could have made much ground by a supple and conciliatory answer which would have mentioned Raila explicitly, and which would have acknowledged that Kibaki now and for present - regardless of the raised doubts about his legitimacy - is the legal president of all Kenyans, including the more than half who did not vote for him (just as more than half did not ote for Raila either), that he acknowledges grievances with regard to the elections, and that he extends a compromise hand to ODM, as soon as calm is restored.

On the side, the reckless and hateful riposte of the increasingly unpalatable former intellectual known as Anyang' Nyong'o has once again made clear that he has not the slightest interest in any peaceful solution, and that he continues to push ODM and Kenya onto a road of mayhem and bloodshed. His incendiary answer also furthermore supports the very strong suspicions and the circumstantial evidence that some ODM politicians are behind the ethnic cleansing and the massmurders in Rift Valley.

Alexander

Attempted justification of RV
written by Truth Be Told , January 25, 2008

I cannot and will never justify the vilence in the rift valley.If it seems i do then i apologise as human life is very sacred to me

But the reasons for the land grievances among the Kalenjin are very much known to kenyans .

They have to do with what happened at independence and refusing to address this issue will not make it go away.

I am now taking a break from writing to this forum as most of my comments i believe are very unpalatable to the editors.

I will engage in serious soul searching -May be i will be back but I leave you with thought: Lets confront our history

...
written by ATribeCalledKenya , January 25, 2008

I don't expect the meeting to yield much. Even after peace is restored, the elections will still remain as they were - highly flawed and inconclusive.

Are we still cattle rustling in Kenya? In a short time we'll be experiencing food shortages...consumers, start saving now because the prices will be ridiculous.

I don't know how, but I hope that Mr-duly-elected-president will be smart about how he proceeds from here. It's hot out there.

If Kibaki was to submit to new mother-of-transparent elections...he'd probably win. One, there's no real alternative and two, Raila's behavior in the last month or so has diminished his potential to command the same support he did just a month.

...
written by denno , January 27, 2008

I really dont trust the Anyang Nyongo guy, I always put on TV I see him on a press confrence I miss a heart beat this guy might be a guerilla. the meeting would succeed but the cliche feel they would be left out if Raila form a coalition or PM

re: Anyang Nyongo
written by Wuod Aketch , January 27, 2008

I really dont trust the Anyang Nyongo guy, I always put on TV I see him on a press confrence I miss a heart beat this guy might be a guerilla. the meeting would succeed but the cliche feel they would be left out if Raila form a coalition or PM

Is it because he wears a Savimbi beard? If Kibaki continues being stubborn, you may miss several heart beats as he might take the occasion to take to the bush.

...
written by D , January 27, 2008

My fellow Kenyans, who would have thought the euphoria and hope that erupted in 2002 would lead to this? Kenyans put so much hope and really united that year but were severely let down!!

Kenya despite its "success" has had some of the worst leadership on the continent, IMO. Bad leadership in that our politicians say the right things but commit deplorable acts behind closed doors (corruption, power-hungry, inciting and funding mobs and militias (e.g. mungiki, rift valley thugs, etc). They have managed to get away with their incompetence, stupidity and lack of class. But something has happened: Kenyans are smarter, more aware and more cynical. Kenya has the potential to be a real force in the world but requires leaders that can lead her to that prosperity.

For example, the current crisis has just shown their true colours. One thing that one can do very successfully in Kenya is to SWEEP everything under the carpet. In fact, it seems to be a politician in Kenya, it makes more sense to be armed with a broom than with intelligence.

Kenyans are intelligent but our leadership has not reached our level. Right now, who cares about the presidency when people are being slaughtered in Rift? You say you are the duly elected president, but tell us, dear sir, why are people dying?

Kibaki is facing a legitimacy problem. At home and abroad. There are parts of the country that the man cannot even step on.. he is a lame duck president. There is the possibility that Kibaki might have won. There is also the same possibility that Raila we won. We don't know. In fact, neither of them should be screaming "I won" when there is no proof that you did.

ODM needs to focus on the election rather than the "we won" mentality. Kivuitu said he did not know. Kibaki needs to face that he has no credibility. You can't have such hard-line positions while people die. They should both try to move towards a new election (maybe in 6 months).. Kibaki might win anyway now that ODM-K are in the government.

Both seem oblivious to what their rhetoric has caused. Annan was shocked by what he saw in Rift Valley. He told both of them to go there and see how much damage is being done.

Kenya needs a new breed of politicans. The Kenyan people have moved beyond the stale and backward politics that the current group want to shove down our throats. We deserve better.

So, right now, if both sides cannot be moved despite the suffering of their people, then they must think of their legacy and how they will be remembered...

Computer Engineer and company
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , February 14, 2008

Its so sad that NOTHING is being done about corruption. The current solution of power sharing is just sharing the "rights" to suck the lifeblood out of Kenya. Both contestants for the power are corrupted to the extreme. Im starting to think it would be best with a new colonization of Kenya by England - because the morality of the Kenyan elite is just non-existant. What a lousy collection of people they are.

Eh, Nicolai?
written by mkosakabila , February 14, 2008

I am inclined to tell you to SHUT UP, but am afraid of the editors. First, I must agree with you that there is great cause to remain suspicious of whatever pact or agreement that was cooked in secrecy in Tsavo. Too top down.

England has been very active with regard to Kenyas election dispute. Could it be that they are positioning themselves to recolonize Kenya? Might you know something that we dont? Eh, Nicolai?

As to the notion that the English leadership is not corrupt and is indeed a paragon of morality, I have no means to verify and very tempted to believe you. But I do remember reading in the Economist newspaper on diverse dates between December 2004 and 2006 articles that seemed to imply corruption. I can run a search and so can you. As an example, some of the loot stolen from African treasuries did get deposited in English banks. Taking action against banks on account of corruption would destablize economies, and politicians were not ready to go that route. As if that were not enough, I thought I read in Githongos report that the Anglo Leasing scam had some connection to the English people. Not sure whether or how many of them were politicians. The same difference.

So, am not telling you to SHUT UP, I guess i can indulge you not least to assuage your racist ego.

(Nicolai might be a racist in his heart - as many Kenyans are - or not, but that cannot be inferred from his posting, which did nothing but state an uncomfortable truth. One might also be inclined to quip that it sometimes takes a racist to recognize one... Ed.)

One last thing not to forget. The English colonists in Kenya were not paragons of morality either.

Keep well.

sanctioned
written by mkosakabila , February 14, 2008

(Nicolai might be a racist in his heart - as many Kenyans are - or not, but that cannot be inferred from his posting, which did nothing but state an uncomfortable truth. One might also be inclined to quip that it sometimes takes a racist to recognize one... Ed.)

Sawa. Am duly sanctioned and take back the accusation. I will look forward to the Gracious Queen sending us her paragons of virtue and morality (and wickedness?).
L-O-N-G may She rule over us!

Racist .. not at all..
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Hehe.. Well, I expected the racist comment to come up. I guess that accusation is the last refuge of the incompetent. I myself is married to a native Kenyan. The only decent and recent politician is Kithongo and he had to flee to England when he actually tried to do some good. I totally agree that England has not been completely good in the past, but tell me, which powerful country has been that? EVER? At least England brought Kenya some development which is partly why Kenya fare better than most other african countries. Besides its fairly certain that a colonizing power wouldnt be able to do more harm to Kenya than Kenyas own "elite" - simply because of the openess in the media and a much more democratic government than what kenya has. So think a little about it. Why is most african countries doing so badly? You cant blame the colonization still. Get over it and get your countries up to standard. Africa has the resources to be the best place in the world. But your "elites" fuck you over and out.

Corruption exist everywhere
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Yes indeed the corruption is everywhere. But in some places the leaders realize that everyone gains from having a good and productive population. Try to compare the natural resources of countries and then explain to me why Kenya has a population that lives below Slavery standards. Its the all penetrating corruption in the leadership which is the reason. How can you get rid of this? You cant when its almost everyone - therefore external help is needed. Colonization is perhaps a too strong word, but some external power is needed to clean up the mess - because its most certainly not going to happen by itself. In the old days a revolution could do some of it.. Very bloody and not at all ensured that decent people got to power. Today the military powers of the ruling class is too far above which means that the corrupt leaders cannot be removed by the decent people. Especially is the decent people are threatened and killed for just mentioning the problems.

Piping money and resources out
written by Nicolai Mathiasen , March 06, 2008

Indeed a lot of corrupt money and resources come to Europe, USA, China, India. But who owns the african countries? Who are the responsible people in the african countries? I will tell you: The african leaders, The Elite. Those people would never think about investing their stolen goods and money in africa because they know first hand how fucked up the leaderships are. They pipe their money to safer places where they dont risk competing corrupt leaders. I have on other websites said that if Europe(and other rich "countries") wanted to real good to africa they would stop the money and resource trafficing out of africa. Look at the top 150 of world riches people. Last time i looked about 50 of them came from poor african countries. How is that possible? Where do you think they live: In usa and england. What race and nation do they come from: They are black, comming from africa. The people that are totally exploiting africa is the african elite. Im sorry, but its obviously an african leadership problem. And its kinda hard for a country to say to legal billionaries: please go somewhere else with all you money and invest them somewhere else.

re: Corruption exist everywher
written by James Macharia , March 06, 2008

Yes indeed the corruption is everywhere. But in some places the leaders realize that everyone gains from having a good and productive population. Try to compare the natural resources of countries and then explain to me why Kenya has a population that lives below Slavery standards. Its the all penetrating corruption in the leadership which is the reason. How can you get rid of this? You cant when its almost everyone - therefore external help is needed. Colonization is perhaps a too strong word, but some external power is needed to clean up the mess - because its most certainly not going to happen by itself. In the old days a revolution could do some of it.. Very bloody and not at all ensured that decent people got to power. Today the military powers of the ruling class is too far above which means that the corrupt leaders cannot be removed by the decent people. Especially is the decent people are threatened and killed for just mentioning the problems.

Just in case you didn't know Kenya doesn't really that many natural resources. Don't throw the term slavery so lightly. Colonization. Our people paid in blood to get where we are today. Africa is like a baby growing up. We'll stumble and fall but eventually we'll walk. The bruises are part of growing up and will only make us stronger. Something self built is much more satisfactory than anything built and then handed over.

...
written by Stephen Wanyama , March 06, 2008

It is impossible to say whether Mathiassen is racist or not, it is indeed likely that he is. Most people who use the term Africa are racist, whether they are black or white is immaterial. It takes a certain special kind of ignorance and blindness to describe a continent with close to 1 billion people on the basis of a few stereotypes that refer more to one country or culture than others.
I have argued before against the use of the term, of cause the racists among us want to persist in using it, it even allows them to support Barack Obama and to cheer him on purely on account of his melanin enhancement. Unless the term is used in a geographical sense, it cannot help but be an ignorant, generalising put-down.
P.S, I was watching this BBC show on the Tropic of Capricorn, the show was going through Botswana and the man was rather disturbed by the elements of maendeleo he saw about him. Then while travelling on a road, he encounters a cow ambling across it, not too bothered about the cards. Know what he says? He goes with, Ah, and here is the old Africa.ђ
Nicholai is probably a troll, but he would do well to realise that corruption is not at all an African phenomenon, and neither is it most debilitating in Africa (this same claim of Nicholais was made on the BBC show in shock that there was not much of it in Namibia). Anyhow, corruption does not cause countries to be backward, this should not be understood as tolerance of it, but whilst corruption does set back countries and states, it is business and innovation that truly drives progress. Ireland, the Baltics, South Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, the Phillipines, even the USA and the UK all developed into prosperous societies on the back of extremely corrupt societies.
When the old clichҩ is enounced, namely that Taiwan and South Korea were at the same level as Kenya or Ghana at independence, or in 1980, the ignoramus mouthing it almost always forgets the reason for the divergence. Whereas Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam and South Korea enjoyed a green revolution we did not put too much of a priority on that. Where they had a million and one start-ups diversifying their economies, we all obsessed about buying as much land as possible, growing as much tea, coffee, pyrethrum and sugar cane as possible.
To see the transformative power of diversification, just look at the growth enjoyed with the growth of services since 1997 or thereabouts, look at the difference caused by lowering interest rates in the last five years, look at the number of well-paid high-skilled jobs created and the number of large MNCs and start-ups in Nairobi these last five years; alternatively look at Ireland and India (corruption really has not let up at all in these countries). It is a lack of innovation and diversification that impoverishes.

re: Racist .. not at all..
written by James Macharia , March 06, 2008

Hehe.. Well, I expected the racist comment to come up. I guess that accusation is the last refuge of the incompetent. I myself is married to a native Kenyan. The only decent and recent politician is Kithongo and he had to flee to England when he actually tried to do some good. I totally agree that England has not been completely good in the past, but tell me, which powerful country has been that? EVER? At least England brought Kenya some development which is partly why Kenya fare better than most other african countries. Besides its fairly certain that a colonizing power wouldnt be able to do more harm to Kenya than Kenyas own "elite" - simply because of the openess in the media and a much more democratic government than what kenya has. So think a little about it. Why is most african countries doing so badly? You cant blame the colonization still. Get over it and get your countries up to standard. Africa has the resources to be the best place in the world. But your "elites" fuck you over and out.

As far as I know Githongo was no politician but some dude appointed to head some institution. No one asked England or any colonial powers to come and bring us development. What they were and are still after are resources. They are not some form of gods who should be worshipped because they killed our culture and brought us into a state of eternal slavery and killed a substantial number of our people. Colonialism was not some form of paradise that descended upon our people but an act of savagery brought to us by those who claim to be 'civilized'. That people were willing to pay in blood for the white man to get the hell out, should erase that romantic imagery you are trying to propagate here.

Independent African states are on average 45-50 years old. Europe did not arrive at where it is today in that time span but has a continuous history going back to a 1000 years+. In that history are acts as savage as any experienced in present day Africa. Europe's history has its fair share of despotic and brutal rulers. Post colonial Africa has little in common with pre-colonial Africa.
Pre-colonial Africa was destroyed by an enemy who frankly had more fire power.

Granted our leaders are corrupt but the world is not built in a way as to let our people countries thrive. European and USA continue to subsidize farm produce instead of letting African countries compete in their markets, while we import all sorts of expensive gadgetry from the EU,US and Asia. This state of affairs is not in our favour and we are in little position to change it. After all, the west and its allies had a considerable head start.

Not to despair, Africa will eventually get there of that I'm certain. World history has to be viewed in terms of Millennia and not in terms of a few decades.